Information please on Felixstowe Ferry foreshore rights and ownership;

[Capt Popeye]

Hi am amgreatly interested for personal reasons in the ownership dispute a while ago over the Foreshore rights at Felixstowe Ferry in my youth all and sundry used to leave their boats on thr foreshore, as they wished; but I understand that a few years ago there arrose a dispute over ownership of that foreshore that went to court to settle it, can I ask if anybody know what it was about, plus who the owners were or are now ?

I spoke to the current fella owning the Boatyard a few weeks ago and plucked up the courage to ask him about it, he appeared to say that the forshore is privately owned and they went to court about it, the result is as I understand it, dinghys and other boats have to lay above the Mean High Water Mark mainly on Ferry Boatyard land now, and pay a small fee for doing so ? so guess that the larger boats lying in the lower forshore areas have to agree it with the Private Owners,. whoever they might be ?

I would be very pleased to find out what went on at the Ferry just for personal intetests sake; as I spent most of my Youth playing around that area and started canoeing plus rowing from that forshore.

Thank you CP

 

[Marmalade]

Unusual (although not unheard of) for the land below the high water line to be privately owned. Curious to know too, now you've raised the subject!

 

[Tomahawk]

IIRC, Maldon DC own the land to the low water mark on the Blackwater..

BUT.. it was a long time ago and my memory may be playing tricks.

 

[PeterWright]

Hi Capt Popeye,

A long haul from Dawlish to the Ferry, but you're right in remembering a long drawn out legal battle over the foreshore there.

In summary, much of the Ferry foreshore is owned by the Felixstowe Ferry Fore Shore Trust - you can find a brief summary of it's history here:

http://www.riverdeben.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/The Deben 53 Autumn 2016.pdf

Most of what I know of that saga I heard from one of the original trustees, the late great shrimper and marine electrician, John Gill.

My personal view is that they have made a fair fist of their declared intent to preserve the character of the area by limiting commercial development.

Peter.

 

[Dan Tribe]

It can be a very grey area. I've had some very heated disputes with landowners on the Crouch. On one occasion a very strident woman was screeching at me to leave, while a guy with a shotgun stood nearby. [not loaded, but nevertheless]. This was because I had landed with my toddler son for a paddle. She actually shouted at me as we left. "And don't come back, we don't want you people here"
I took it up with the Crouch Harbour Authority and the local council but never got a sensible answer.

 

[sailorman]

It can be a very grey area. I've had some very heated disputes with landowners on the Crouch. On one occasion a very strident woman was screeching at me to leave, while a guy with a shotgun stood nearby. [not loaded, but nevertheless]. This was because I had landed with my toddler son for a paddle. She actually shouted at me as we left. "And don't come back, we don't want you people here"
I took it up with the Crouch Harbour Authority and the local council but never got a sensible answer.

The Crown will undoubtedly own up to the HW mark

 

[Dan Tribe]

The Crown will undoubtedly own up to the HW mark

I think it has become more convoluted than that. Traditionally the Crouch was owned by Whitstable Oyster Co. presumably that gave them the right to grow and harvest oysters but it was also seen that they "owned" the river bed. A company bought them out for not much money with a view to extract gravel for the proposed Maplin Airport. So they must have thought it gave them more than fishing rights. To prevent this, the Crouch Harbour Authority was formed, originally by landowners and yachting interests. I think it involved an Act of Parliament?
It is also muddied because several families historically owned parcels of the bed for mooring rights or oysterage. My wife's grandad claimed that he owned an area near Creeksea but we can find no documentary proof.
The distinction between "owning" and "having rights to" are not always easy to unravel.

 

[ex-Gladys]

IIRC, Maldon DC own the land to the low water mark on the Blackwater..

BUT.. it was a long time ago and my memory may be playing tricks.

Maldon own down as far as the Fisheries mark halfway down the Marconi moorings, the piece further downstream is owned by Crown Estates - Marconi pays dues to both for the sets of moorings on each authorities area.

 

[FulmarJeddo]

The Crown will undoubtedly own up to the HW mark

That is true for most of the coast, but rivers are different. Most rivers are controlled by a River or Port Authority. On the Medway, Peel Ports are able to charge us for placing a mooring sinker on drying mud. Or if we wanted to dredge it we would have to pay Peel Ports for a license. To further complicate the issue, the farmer of the adjoining land insists it is his property as back in the 18th & 19th Century the land that is now the creek was excavated to make bricks, so it isn't technically part of the river.

 

[PeterWright]

The Crown will undoubtedly own up to the HW mark

As I understand it, nowadays the Crown Estates own just under 50% of what I always knew as the Queen's foreshore, between high and low water marks. as recently as 2015, I believe she gifted the foreshore of Guernsey to the people of the island. Large tranches have been gifted to the National Trust and other organisations, like town councils, became owners under gifts from her royal predecssors, so it really is a messy picture, nothing like as simple as I learned at school.

It seems our Monarchs have mostly taken a fairly relaxed view of ownership and, in particular, the upper boundary being defined by the high water mark. Guernsey coastal landowners whose land, and sometimes buildings, flood on big tides have become concerned as to whether what they have always believed was theirs may now belong to the Bailiwick. When the foreshore belonged to the Queen, they never gave it much thought. No doubt the lawyers will make a few quid out of that one.

Peter.

 

[FulmarJeddo]

As I understand it, nowadays the Crown Estates own just under 50% of what I always knew as the Queen's foreshore, between high and low water marks. as recently as 2015, I believe she gifted the foreshore of Guernsey to the people of the island. Large tranches have been gifted to the National Trust and other organisations, like town councils, became owners under gifts from her royal predecssors, so it really is a messy picture, nothing like as simple as I learned at school.

It seems our Monarchs have mostly taken a fairly relaxed view of ownership and, in particular, the upper boundary being defined by the high water mark. Guernsey coastal landowners whose land, and sometimes buildings, flood on big tides have become concerned as to whether what they have always believed was theirs may now belong to the Bailiwick. When the foreshore belonged to the Queen, they never gave it much thought. No doubt the lawyers will make a few quid out of that one.

Peter.

The boundary between Crown Property (or whoever now owns it) on the coast and private land is normally Mean High Water Springs. Again a very woolly point to locate as from memory, it is the average of something like 4 Spring tides over 2 months (that may not be the correct definition, but something like that). There are so many variables that could affect that, it is almost impossible to put a mark in the sand.

 

[Capt Popeye]

The Crown will undoubtedly own up to the HW mark

Yes thats my understanding, BUT, its the MEAN high water mark not the Springs HW mark or the Neaps; I have requested that our local Harbour Authority mark where the Mean HW mark actually is, but without sucess so far;
I do understand that the Shaldon Local Council made sure that they retained heir rights above Mean HW mark, as most of Shaldon Beach is sand and its a real boon to the visitors and their Chidren ; us boaters have to move our small craft lower down forshore into Authority forshore ie Crown

 

[Capt Popeye]

Hi Capt Popeye,

A long haul from Dawlish to the Ferry, but you're right in remembering a long drawn out legal battle over the foreshore there.

In summary, much of the Ferry foreshore is owned by the Felixstowe Ferry Fore Shore Trust - you can find a brief summary of it's history here:

http://www.riverdeben.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/The Deben 53 Autumn 2016.pdf

Most of what I know of that saga I heard from one of the original trustees, the late great shrimper and marine electrician, John Gill.

My personal view is that they have made a fair fist of their declared intent to preserve the character of the area by limiting commercial development.

Peter.

Ahoy there Peter Wright thank you very very much for the information posted; I have read it all and found it most interesting indeed; many references to people and familys that I knew that many years ago, crikey how one's memory can go back quite far at times;
Yes well it gives some answers to my self questions, but after having digested it all, I am sure that I will find unanswered questions that will 'bug' me ;
One Question that I would like to know is, who owns the grounds around the Boat Yard, as I recall that its mainly 'in fill' upon saltins, especially the boat storage areas, towards the Boat Houses of Charachter etc.
Thank you again Peter Wright

 

[PeterWright]

Hi Capt. P.

Sorry, I don't know the answer to that one. If you can't find out by chatting to the boat yard owner next time you're over here, you could try the land registry.

However carefully you define the high water mark, it's something which moves over time through both natural process and human endeavour. The burghers of Dunwich will vouch for the first and the Victoria Embankment was part of the Thames foreshore until Joseph Bazalgette built his great sewer to rid London of the stink (or at least move it down river to Silvertown, where it had to compete with the smell from the sugar factory).

Peter.

 

[fredrussell]

When I am dictator of this country, anyone who has ever ‘told off’ anyone for landing a small craft (canoe, dinghy, etc) on an estuary foreshore will be first up against the wall. Closely followed by anyone that has a “no turning” sign on their driveway.

 

[Dan Tribe]

When I am dictator of this country, anyone who has ever ‘told off’ anyone for landing a small craft (canoe, dinghy, etc) on an estuary foreshore will be first up against the wall. Closely followed by anyone that has a “no turning” sign on their driveway.

Just before the Stour barrier was bult, Charlie Stock took Shoal Waters up to Flatford Mill and anchored in the mill pool. He was soon accosted by someone from the visitors centre who told him that he couldn't stay there, it was private and he was spoiling the view.
"no it isn't, it's tidal water and I have the right of navigation " he replied.
Charlie enjoyed lively conversation, I wish I had been there.

 

[Corribee Boy]

Just to throw some more information in to the mix: This link shows what the Crown believe they own.

https://crownestate.maps.arcgis.com/apps/Viewer/index.html?appid=0aac22685d2f4d78a2a3b0a5aa1660db

The boundary given for the foreshore outside my beach hut doesn't correspond to any known high water mark, even historical and allowing for erosion or deposition of material.

 

[Bigplumbs]

Land ownership is an interesting and also ridiculous concept. People who claim they own land are ill informed. The earth has been here for Billions of years and hopefully will be here for Billions longer. To claim that you own parts of it is quite simply ridiculous. Think of the timeline over which you think you own it and compare it with the timeline of the earth. At any scale it would be invisible.

At the very best a person is a tenant and to be precise a tenant in fee simple absolute in possession.

Claiming you own land has little more sense than claiming you own the air we breath...... You may have rights over land but you sure as heck don't own it

 

[oldgit]

That is true for most of the coast, but rivers are different. Most rivers are controlled by a River or Port Authority. On the Medway, Peel Ports are able to charge us for placing a mooring sinker on drying mud. Or if we wanted to dredge it we would have to pay Peel Ports for a license. To further complicate the issue, the farmer of the adjoining land insists it is his property as back in the 18th & 19th Century the land that is now the creek was excavated to make bricks, so it isn't technically part of the river.

Just to muddy the Medway waters
You might be interested in this.
Since time immemorial...............
Rochester Oyster and Floating Fishery
Home | roff
Even the Crown estates had to pay compensation to ROFF when the Royal Dockyards were built and Naval moorings were laid on the bed of the Medway , in more recent times Southern Water thought they ruled the roost and could ignore ancient rights.
ROFF went to court.
The case went to the High Court.
The Court found for ROFF.
Royal Charters can only be rescinded by a Monarch .
One or two local marinas/boatyards also thought they could pop a pile or two and the odd mooring chain into the river bed with impunity.
The fishing community in Queenborough also thought that the charter did not apply to them.

"The Admiralty Court still has a genuine function and real teeth. Medway Council and the Rochester Oyster and Floating Fishery continue to take action against poachers and unlawful fishing, and in 2003 they successfully prosecuted an Isle of Sheppey fisherman for encroaching on their stretch of the river. "

 

[Dee Bee]

When I am dictator of this country, anyone who has ever ‘told off’ anyone for landing a small craft (canoe, dinghy, etc) on an estuary foreshore will be first up against the wall. Closely followed by anyone that has a “no turning” sign on their driveway.

Add all jet ski owners!