In mast furling. Desirable?

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pcatterall

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We are starting a group which plans a yacht share and are considering the pros and cons of various yachts. In mast furling came up and as I have not really thought about it in the past
decided that there was no better place for advice than here! I will encourage the other group members to view the comments.
We are looking for a yacht of around 10m and will be sailing in Spain. We noticed 2 Furia 33s and one had in mast which sparked debate.
In general what are the pros and cons? My only experience is watching a neighbouring yacht owner trying over days to unjam his furler and this did put me off a little.
On the other hand they do seem neat and easy to use!
I will be interested in views and experiences as these may inform our buying options.
Thanks all.
 
Yes. Pros are obvious - easier handling, ability to infinitely vary sail area rather than be limited to discrete areas. Pay attention to technique for furling , suffers if sail is old and baggy. follow simple maintenance. Jamming usually results from poor furling technique, baggy sail or mechanical problems. I have had 2 boats with in mast through choice and now back to slab reefing with all its downsides for old man simple sailing.
 
As a believer that in-mast mainsail furling is the spawn of the devil I solved the old man issue with an electric winch handle and a proper mainsail...

I'm sure it's improved over the years but I'm reminded of being in the lock at Arzal earlier this year with an old couple (apologies if you're on here...) in all sorts of trouble on an otherwise very smart Westerly something with a half furled main causing chaos, exacerbated by the lock keeper in full voice bellowing at them !
 
As a cruiser for the last twenty years, two boats had slab reefing, one an antique roller boom and the current vessel in mast, plus the benefit of a powered winch, a Lewmar 40.

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind which was the better system for an elderly crew.

The 'in mast' furling was almost trouble free - would have been had we ignored the advice of a Sailmaker who serviced the sails and insisted we use his special vertical battens.

Once we 'deep sixed' these, back to easy in-out and reefing, no jams.

The battens did little for sail shape but increased the rolled diameter causing stiffness and a jam.

The confidence our system gave us allowed us to venture further and farther than we might have done as we knew getting sail off the boat was a doddle for a weak crew.

You will know that sail shape is not the best, but in my view it was a compromise worth accepting.
 
I guess I understand the above, but even at 78 years old the ex-racer in me still enjoys tweaking a good looking sailplan. An electric winch would help but it was either that at around £3K or getting the driveway at home sorted and an electric winch handle that does a great job at £700 !
(plus single line reefing of course)
 
I'm with Lightwave on this. I much prefer being able to get the main down in a hurry, and not have to worry about it jamming "because you didn't get the angle of the boom or the tension exactly right". Especially on a 10m boat, the main is light enough to hoist easily, and reefing is a doddle with a single-line system. As suggested above, just buy a Winchrite electric winch handle if people complain about hoisting the main.
 
Desirable - not for they are not. Doubtless loads will say how wonderful they are and how they have transformed sail handling. They probably work well when everything's new but then well. I have personally come across cruisers who have suffered problems with in-mast furling. To me the thought of one jamming at a critical moment, eg caught out in a sudden blow and not able to furl or drop the sail , and sods law says that is when it would happen would fill me with terror. At least with slab reefing you can always drop the sail.
 
I've got slab reefing and will stay with it at present. I knew people who had in mast and it allowed them to carry on sailing well into their 80's.

I believe the early in mast did have problems but these seemed to have disappeared with better design and understanding which includes the sailmakers.
 
Over the past twenty plus years I've only ever used "the spawn of the devil". I've had no problems in that time. Observe good furling techniques as mentioned above.
 
It took me a little bit of use to get the hang of in-mast furling reliably, but now it’s a pretty smooth experience and not having to leave the cockpit is often a significantly nice feature. I do find myself wondering, when in a rolly anchorage, how much the same boat would be wobbling about if all the weight of the sail were down on the boom instead of aloft; maybe it’s not a huge factor due to the shape of a sail, but I’d certainly be curious.
 
pcatterall said:
We are starting a group which plans a yacht share and are considering the pros and cons of various yachts. In mast furling came up and as I have not really thought about it in the past
decided that there was no better place for advice than here! I will encourage the other group members to view the comments.
We are looking for a yacht of around 10m and will be sailing in Spain. We noticed 2 Furia 33s and one had in mast which sparked debate.
In general what are the pros and cons? My only experience is watching a neighbouring yacht owner trying over days to unjam his furler and this did put me off a little.
On the other hand they do seem neat and easy to use!
I will be interested in views and experiences as these may inform our buying options.
Thanks all.
Click to expand...
Whilst I don't feel competent enough to comment on either system. I would say this. Which system is more likely to be prone to "Operator error"? If you as you say, have a group, what is the betting that at least one of that group will be "Cack handed" There is always one! 🥴 :p
 
I've sailed many charter boats with both in-mast and stack-pack/lazy-jacks - I've had problems with both.

In the case of the in-mast furling, the boat had a worn out main, way too baggy, and the sail material was far too thin and flexible (so worn out it was almost like spinnaker material) ... when rolling out, the exiting sail picked up a fold from the baggy part, pulled it out of the slot and jammed. We lost an afternoon of our holiday while the charter company sorted it out. The solution was to only roll out on a starboard tack so the exiting sail closed the exit-slot and prevented the folds being picked up.

The stack-pack problem was a boat that required a gorilla on the main-halyard, the batons caught on the lazy-jacks constantly requiring dropping and rehoisting to free the batons. The sail sliders were old and worn and had way too much friction, and some of the sliders were no longer attached to the sail. On top of this, to reef required going head-to-wind, releasing the halyard and then having to go forward to the mast because the sail didn't drop cleanly, and if you didn't want the reefing lines thrashing about, you needed to pull all of them in as the sail came down. Making the halyard fast once it was down required me to balance on a mast step which was not easy in the swell we were in - it's important to detach the halyard or make it fast if you don't want the sail going back up the mast in a real blow.

The cause of these issues on both systems were all due to combinations of poor maintenance, sail condition, and/or cheap equipment (sliders, sail, battens) so IMO it is all avoidable.

Assuming you have good sails, a regularly maintained roller furler, or, for stack packs, ball-bearing cars, battons that don't protrude from the luff and jam in the lazyjacks, and a single-line reefing system then here are the differences.

  • Sail shape and performance - roller furling will not deliver the same performance as a stack-pack - the horizontal battons allow a larger sail area and a better sail shape.
  • Reefed Sail size- Stack pack has 3 or 4 sail sizes to choose from, roller furling is infinite.
  • Ease of use - Roller furling - Sail size can be reduced and increased from the cockpit without changing course, unless running deep downwind - it is a two line operation - ease the outhaul and pull in on the furling line. Stack pack requires releasing the main halyard and dropping the sail to the reef point you need while securing the reef-line you want in order to pull the clew and tack into place. It's a good idea to tidy up the unused reefing lines to stop them thrashing around while you sort out the sail, they will need to be loosened again to shake the reef out. If the unused reefing lines are not stowed properly, then they can come loose and catch on deck hardware or people if the wind is strong and the sail is flogging during a tack.
  • Stowage - as the roller furling stows the sail in the mast, it is out of the way and a ratchet prevents it deploying accidentally (Selden). A stack pack is flaked into a sail-cover mounted on the boom which can then be zipped shut - ensure you have a method to easily do this as if the boom extends into the cockpit and over the bimini then the end of the cover and stowage of reefing lines can be a pain. Depending on how tall you are, larger boats can also make reaching the halyard to secure it difficult. You need to leave the cockpit to stow a stack-pack and leave it safe - most people do this in a marina at the end of the day, but in a gale at sea, if you want to prevent the unexpected deployment of the sail then the main halyard at the head of the sail needs to be made fast somehow - usually involving a trip to the mast.
  • Boat size - the bigger the boat, the bigger the sails. Stack-packs require a certain amount of strength and fitness to manhandle into their stowage - this effort increases with sail size - not to mention a bit of clambering around on deck. If this is not important to you, then it is not a negative point for stack-packs.
On both my boats I have had in-mast furling from Selden - they have functioned without issue since 2010. My current boat has a 54m² main sail, and as a cruising couple, there is no way we could cope with this as a stack-pack in strong winds.

If you always have a crew fit enough to deal with a stack-pack in a blow, and ultimate performance is important, or you want to race your boat, then my recommendation would be to get a stack-pack.
If you are a cruising sailor, with a larger boat (>40ft) who sails short-handed and you are looking for ease of use, then get roller furling.

All the arguments about reliability of the two systems are a waste of time .... IMO it is a dead heat if you are talking about modern, well maintained systems.
 
Alex_Blackwood said:
Whilst I don't feel competent enough to comment on either system. I would say this. Which system is more likely to be prone to "Operator error"? If you as you say, have a group, what is the betting that at least one of that group will be "Cack handed" There is always one! 🥴 :p
Click to expand...
That is a very good point, as you say. One out of 6 is bound to get it wrong. At 84 I would appreciate in mast if I had complete confidence in it. On my last 2 boats every thing on the main was done at the mast and I would find this an issue nowadays but with the lines led back and possible electric help I may get my confidence back.
 
Alex_Blackwood said:
Whilst I don't feel competent enough to comment on either system. I would say this. Which system is more likely to be prone to "Operator error"? If you as you say, have a group, what is the betting that at least one of that group will be "Cack handed" There is always one! 🥴 :p
Click to expand...

If you don't know what you are doing then either system is going to give you problems when the sh!t hits the fan.

As with all the other aspects of the boat you choose, you have to learn what works and what doesn't and sort out your own procedures for operating everything safely in challenging conditions. Operator error can occur equally on both systems IMO - reefing requires an understanding of how to operate your reefing system properly while co-ordinating that with an awareness of wind direction, strength, wave size, and how your boat handles in the conditions. I've lost count of the times people have put ropes on winches the wrong way round, or pulled the wrong rope, losing valuable time as they then try and sort it all out.

The less practice you have on either system will lead to more stress, possible panic, and then mistakes will be made - bad mistakes are more likely to occur when you are outside your comfort zone, especially with an inexperienced crew in strong wind and a heavy sea.

It's the basic rule of learning to sail, don't bite off more than you can chew, and only push beyond your comfort zone in small steps - modern weather forecasting makes this much easier to achieve.

My crew is tiny, 48kgs and 5ft tall .... very enthusiastic but not particularly strong, she can reef the main from the port cabin top using an electric winch, 3 ropes and the clutch block.

Ease the main, clamp off the main sheet,
Ease the outhaul 50-100cms, clamp off the outhaul,
Furl the sail 50-100 cms, clamp off the furling line,
Pull the mainsheet back in to re-power the main,

All this happens with minimal flapping, no need to turn up into the wind and waves, and if the main sail is close to the cross-trees, we head upwind a bit and trim the genoa to give drive while we deal with the main.
 
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Lightwave395 said:
Wonder if this could end up being another anchor thread ! :)
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Yes. comes up from time to time and goes the same way.

Those that have no experience of owning a boat with in mast think it is the spawn of the devil, those who have owned boats with it would never go back through choice. Very little in between

You really have to experience it to recognise that the chances of failure are rare (none in my 20 years of owning such things) and appreciate that in a cruising context (ie passage times or days run if long distance) there is little difference. and you have no need for miles of line in the cockpit, electric winches worrying about what to do with all the excess cloth not used when reefed etc. Of course if you like pulling bits of string to eke out fractions of a knot then you will miss that.

Not a surprise to find that 90% of HR yachts are fitted with in mast from Selden - the initial development was partly in response to demand from that source. Plenty of other up market builders followed the lead and for many production builders sell as many in mast as slab. are they all wrong? or the experienced buyers who typically buy new boats and have the choice?
 
I think on larger boats the benefits become more compelling.
We're on a 47ft now and sometimes on a short (<1hr) passage I won't bother getting the (slab reefed) main up because it's just too much work.
 
My principal rules/techniques/thoughts on using our Selden inmast furling setup (17m mast, 13.1m loa Bermudan sloop sailed by cruising couple mid sixties)

1. The yacht needs to be on starboard tack to successfully furl/reef the sail. Attempting furling on port tack induces too much friction and over stresses the sail, the furling line, the furling mechanism and the winch monkey. This is because of the direction of furl on to the foil inside the mast, the sail needs to furl directly on to the foil, not be forced around a tight corner of the mast slot and then on to the foil. This is for Selden, different makes may operate the other way around.

2. Never use an electric winch to furl, if that much force is needed then improve technique. Feedback to the winch monkey is essential, you don’t get feedback through a button.

3. Boom angle is critical, the sail needs to be flat when presented to the foil. On a flat calm day pull the sail out and vary the boom height until you’ve a flat sail with equal tension on leach and foot. Note the height of the boom so that when furling in anger you know where the boom needs to be.

4. Make sure the ratchet on the furling winch is in good functioning order, when the wind gets up you don’t want to rely just on the furling line to hold the foil static in position.

5. Keep a light tension on the outhaul as the sail is furled, this prevents sail creases entering the slot.

6. Ensure there’s adequate mainsail halyard tension to prevent creases entering the slot.

We’re all using different techniques I’m quite sure, but those are the ones that I’ve learned over the years.
 
My last boat had slab reefing which I could reef in minutes when needed, a bit of a struggle but I just put up with it. Then on holiday our hire boat had in mast reefing which once I had worked out which rope to pull I found it easy and preferable to my slab reefing boat. All lines led back to the cockpit. We did have a jam, but that was my fault for not keeping tension on the other line
My next boat will have it
 
We're an ancient couple, sailing an 11m ketch. The main is in-mast, by Kemp (now Selden), and the much smaller mizzen has conventional mast track and stack pack.
The mainsail is hoisted once a year. The mizzen has to be hoisted every time it's used.
To furl away, or to reef the main is a one person doddle. Doing anything with the mizzen needs both of us.
Yes, the in-mast works better and easier on starboard tack. Both systems require the use of techniques, and when adhered to, both systems work, but for us oldies, in-mast has kept sailing possible.
Some sail efficiency will be lost by needing to have a larger section mast, and a flatter cut sail, but the loose-footed foot, and the readily adjusted outhaul, make it very simple to achieve the optimum shape of sail.
 
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