IN in EU or OUT from EU

[prv]

One small anecdotal point, my parents were on the receiving end of some very nasty and intimidating verbal abuse in France last year.

As indeed have been a couple of my friends here in the UK. I suppose the abusers' views have probably always been as they are, but they have now been emboldened to express them. One friend has lived in the UK since she was 14 and not encountered anything like it until last year.

Pete

 

[westhinder]

That's very regrettable and, I hope, untypical. Perhaps some people are beginning to wonder just who the hell we think we are, continually heaping abuse on Europeans and an organisation most of them value.
.

That will undoubtedly be the case for some, and if that leads to personal unpleasantness, that is most regrettable.
From what I can see around me, most people who care at all are still wondering how that could happen and especially on what is largely seen here as false arguments, prejudice and nostalgia for something that never really existed, not sound political and economic grounds.

 

[Tranona]

That will undoubtedly be the case for some, and if that leads to personal unpleasantness, that is most regrettable.
From what I can see around me, most people who care at all are still wondering how that could happen and especially on what is largely seen here as false arguments, prejudice and nostalgia for something that never really existed, not sound political and economic grounds.

I am afraid you are reading things wrongly. All the polls (for what they are worth) show a very different picture of the reasons for leaving. Nothing to do with the things you mention although it is convenient for some to think so. In addition all polls are showing increasing support for leaving, probably helped by the leaders of the "it must be stopped" crowd have little credibility amongst voters.

I find it fascinating that arguments with which one disagrees are called "false" arguments when nearly all the arguments used in defence of remain (at least in the short term) have proved to be untrue. This does not give one much confidence in the longer term doom and gloom predictions coming from the same sources.

Anyway this has little to do with the question. Apart from the increase in new boat prices (pleased I took the plunge in summer 2015) there has been little impact just as in the rest of our daily lives.

 

[Daydream believer]

The tieing together of the European countries together economically has led to the longest lasting peace in Europe for hundreds of years. No wars, for my parents, or for me, and hopefully not for my children. The Balkan civil war, that could easily have led to another world war a few generations ago as everyone took sides and looked for an advantage.

That peace,to me, is worth putting up with any number of bureaucrats and idiotic institutions.
.

I tend to disagree with that bit of reasoning.
Firstly one has to filter out fake news but it is clear that the effect of immigration, along with the religious consequences has caused considerable damage to society throughout Europe. Anti semetism against jews is on the rise again & they are moving away from Europe. There are more "no go" areas in major cities across the EU than we realise. There are many in this country. All of which are denied by politicians & denied by the liberal elite. that is not racist, it is fact.

So whilst 95% of us live in peace, life for the other 5% is far from peaceful. There are riots in EU cities every week & if one is involved in these then one might as well be in a war zone. imagine a shop keeper who has his business destroyed in an afternoon by looters. Imagine being told you cannot walk down the street that you have lived in any more because you do not comply with a particular culture. Cannot imagine that- for some it is a reality.
Worst of all is the fear women have of personal attack. Can you imagine how a woman must feel even if she has only been manhandled. the fear must be enormous & the mental stress everlasting. Have you seen the reports of female joggers in groups in Sweden being escorted by police. That is not fake news, the video shows the police & the joggers & the jogger /police interviews.

This country has absorbed, typically, Chinese, Indian & Jewish cultures over a long period of time & generally this has been to our benefit. None of these cultures have been as a result of EU membership. The cultures that we have had to accept as a result of being in the EU have had a far greater detrimental effect on our society than any of those that preceded them in the 100 years before. Further more it has been at a rate too fast to accept & of a type that will not conform to our way of life. That has lead to social unrest. No war- but social unease can be just as bad for many

Steve, you are right when you say that we have had peace in our time but the social unrest is spreading & I for one am happy that I do not live in parts of Sweden, France, Belgium, Greece or come to that - London.

Terrorism may not be stopped by leaving the EU but my daughter works in Canary Wharf & every day i worry. If leaving it can reduce the threat by controlling immigration then the sooner out the better. I worked in London in the days when the IRA were a threat & i never felt safe sitting in the Wardorf hotel looking at weighted curtains in front of the windows to act as glass fragment shields . Do they still have them? No wars but still not utopia is it

 

[macd]

all polls are showing increasing support for leaving

We both know a forumite fond of using careless false absolutes, Tranona. Surprised to see you following suit.

 

[Capt Popeye]

I tend to disagree with that bit of reasoning.
Firstly one has to filter out fake news but it is clear that the effect of immigration, along with the religious consequences has caused considerable damage to society throughout Europe. Anti semetism against jews is on the rise again & they are moving away from Europe. There are more "no go" areas in major cities across the EU than we realise. There are many in this country. All of which are denied by politicians & denied by the liberal elite. that is not racist, it is fact.

So whilst 95% of us live in peace, life for the other 5% is far from peaceful. There are riots in EU cities every week & if one is involved in these then one might as well be in a war zone. imagine a shop keeper who has his business destroyed in an afternoon by looters. Imagine being told you cannot walk down the street that you have lived in any more because you do not comply with a particular culture. Cannot imagine that- for some it is a reality.
Worst of all is the fear women have of personal attack. Can you imagine how a woman must feel even if she has only been manhandled. the fear must be enormous & the mental stress everlasting. Have you seen the reports of female joggers in groups in Sweden being escorted by police. That is not fake news, the video shows the police & the joggers & the jogger /police interviews.

This country has absorbed, typically, Chinese, Indian & Jewish cultures over a long period of time & generally this has been to our benefit. None of these cultures have been as a result of EU membership. The cultures that we have had to accept as a result of being in the EU have had a far greater detrimental effect on our society than any of those that preceded them in the 100 years before. Further more it has been at a rate too fast to accept & of a type that will not conform to our way of life. That has lead to social unrest. No war- but social unease can be just as bad for many

Steve, you are right when you say that we have had peace in our time but the social unrest is spreading & I for one am happy that I do not live in parts of Sweden, France, Belgium, Greece or come to that - London.

Terrorism may not be stopped by leaving the EU but my daughter works in Canary Wharf & every day i worry. If leaving it can reduce the threat by controlling immigration then the sooner out the better. I worked in London in the days when the IRA were a threat & i never felt safe sitting in the Wardorf hotel looking at weighted curtains in front of the windows to act as glass fragment shields . Do they still have them? No wars but still not utopia is it

Quite so kind Sir quite so

Might also say that the poster claiming peace in Europe somehow does not seem to include that part of Europe that embraces a Communist or Socialist country ? Think that the EU are responsible for a worsening of our relations with Russia that is to our detriment plus quite unnecessary, the term Willy Waving seems appropriate for the EU statesmen.

No would suggest that our divorce from that EU will strengthen our influences in Europe and due to our more balanced view of Europe Inc Russia will give peace more of a chance than our retaining EU membership.

 

[jordanbasset]

Some of these posts would be better off in the lounge

 

[macd]

Some of these posts would be better off in the lounge

Or a skip.

 

[Daydream believer]

Some of these posts would be better off in the lounge

That comment suggests that you are a remoaner
You know the method- "I am not voting against, but feel we should be doing it this way"
The idea being that somehow it may get suppressed if we stick it in a corner out of the way.

Why on earth should we move it to the lounge? - It has attracted nearly 867 posts ( less a few pointless posts appealing for it to be moved ) & has not - so far- sunk to any abusive comments that I have noticed, which must be a record in itself
Why interfere with interesting debate which has seen opinion given due account on both sides ?

 

[Daydream believer]

Some of these posts would be better off in the lounge

I might be well wide of the mark here but that comment suggests that you are a remoaner
You know the method- "I am not voting against, but feel we should be doing it this way"
The idea being that somehow it may get suppressed if we stick it in a corner out of the way.

Why on earth should we move it to the lounge? - It has attracted nearly 867 posts ( less a few pointless posts appealing for it to be moved ) & has not - so far- sunk to any abusive comments that I have noticed, which must be a record in itself
Why interfere with interesting debate which has seen opinion given due account on both sides ?

 

[nortada]

I might be well wide of the mark here but that comment suggests that you are a remoaner
You know the method- "I am not voting against, but feel we should be doing it this way"
The idea being that somehow it may get suppressed if we stick it in a corner out of the way.

Why on earth should we move it to the lounge? - It has attracted nearly 867 posts ( less a few pointless posts appealing for it to be moved ) & has not - so far- sunk to any abusive comments that I have noticed, which must be a record in itself
Why interfere with interesting debate which has seen opinion given due account on both sides ?

I see this thread was started on 16 Apr 16, before the setting up of a Brexit sub-forum.

After 7 months of no posts this thread has now been reactivated but drifted away from the original debate to yet another IN/OUT argument. Nothing to do with boating.

Now we have a Brexit forum possibly this thread should be moved there?

 

[jordanbasset]

That comment suggests that you are a remoaner?

You make my point.
There were and some interesting observations about the specifics into how Brexit may effect the Yachting community but it is starting to become a more generalised and partial debate on the generalities and now denigrating into childish name calling. Just my opinion but think if people want to do that there is a better place for it and leave this thread to talk about the practicalities as to how it effects or doesn't effect yachting.

 

[Biggles Wader]

That comment suggests that you are a remoaner
You know the method- "I am not voting against, but feel we should be doing it this way"
The idea being that somehow it may get suppressed if we stick it in a corner out of the way.

Why on earth should we move it to the lounge? - It has attracted nearly 867 posts ( less a few pointless posts appealing for it to be moved ) & has not - so far- sunk to any abusive comments that I have noticed, which must be a record in itself
Why interfere with interesting debate which has seen opinion given due account on both sides ?

You use the abusive term "remoaner" and then claim immediately that the thread has not sunk to any abusive comments.Are you serious?

 

[steve yates]

I tend to disagree with that bit of reasoning.
Firstly one has to filter out fake news but it is clear that the effect of immigration, along with the religious consequences has caused considerable damage to society throughout Europe. Anti semetism against jews is on the rise again & they are moving away from Europe. There are more "no go" areas in major cities across the EU than we realise. There are many in this country. All of which are denied by politicians & denied by the liberal elite. that is not racist, it is fact.

So whilst 95% of us live in peace, life for the other 5% is far from peaceful. There are riots in EU cities every week & if one is involved in these then one might as well be in a war zone. imagine a shop keeper who has his business destroyed in an afternoon by looters. Imagine being told you cannot walk down the street that you have lived in any more because you do not comply with a particular culture. Cannot imagine that- for some it is a reality.
Worst of all is the fear women have of personal attack. Can you imagine how a woman must feel even if she has only been manhandled. the fear must be enormous & the mental stress everlasting. Have you seen the reports of female joggers in groups in Sweden being escorted by police. That is not fake news, the video shows the police & the joggers & the jogger /police interviews.

This country has absorbed, typically, Chinese, Indian & Jewish cultures over a long period of time & generally this has been to our benefit. None of these cultures have been as a result of EU membership. The cultures that we have had to accept as a result of being in the EU have had a far greater detrimental effect on our society than any of those that preceded them in the 100 years before. Further more it has been at a rate too fast to accept & of a type that will not conform to our way of life. That has lead to social unrest. No war- but social unease can be just as bad for many

Steve, you are right when you say that we have had peace in our time but the social unrest is spreading & I for one am happy that I do not live in parts of Sweden, France, Belgium, Greece or come to that - London.

Terrorism may not be stopped by leaving the EU but my daughter works in Canary Wharf & every day i worry. If leaving it can reduce the threat by controlling immigration then the sooner out the better. I worked in London in the days when the IRA were a threat & i never felt safe sitting in the Wardorf hotel looking at weighted curtains in front of the windows to act as glass fragment shields . Do they still have them? No wars but still not utopia is it

That you and popeye can equate an occasional riot and inner city tension, (caused by poverty by the way, not immigration) to being anything like a war zone and the death and misery they entail for civilians, or the utter devastation of europe in 39-45, then I cannot take any opinion of yours seriously, sorry.

 

[steve yates]

I am afraid you are reading things wrongly. All the polls (for what they are worth) show a very different picture of the reasons for leaving. Nothing to do with the things you mention although it is convenient for some to think so. In addition all polls are showing increasing support for leaving, probably helped by the leaders of the "it must be stopped" crowd have little credibility amongst voters.

I find it fascinating that arguments with which one disagrees are called "false" arguments when nearly all the arguments used in defence of remain (at least in the short term) have proved to be untrue. This does not give one much confidence in the longer term doom and gloom predictions coming from the same sources.

Anyway this has little to do with the question. Apart from the increase in new boat prices (pleased I took the plunge in summer 2015) there has been little impact just as in the rest of our daily lives.

You are factually incorrect tranona, not sure where "all polls are showing increasing support for leaving." http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...y-eu-poll-finds-biggest-gap-since-referendum/

Immigration was the single biggest issue cited for voting leave. Being anti immigration is not racist, and is a valid argument from certain viewpoints, however it is cute in the extreme to claim that racism has nothing to do with the vote. There are a lot of racists in the uk, (in every country in fact,) and all of them will have voted leave, and cited immigration as their reasons, so it has certainly played a part.

 

[Tranona]

You are factually incorrect tranona, not sure where "all polls are showing increasing support for leaving." http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...y-eu-poll-finds-biggest-gap-since-referendum/

Immigration was the single biggest issue cited for voting leave. Being anti immigration is not racist, and is a valid argument from certain viewpoints, however it is cute in the extreme to claim that racism has nothing to do with the vote. There are a lot of racists in the uk, (in every country in fact,) and all of them will have voted leave, and cited immigration as their reasons, so it has certainly played a part.

Without getting onto a debate on the reliability of polls I think you have to question that one for two reasons. Firstly it was commissioned a newspaper which is a strong "remain" supporter and secondly it is impossible to have a result that does not have a "don't know" element. I would want to look at the question and the sampling frame before giving that any credibility.

Interestingly the other poll reported in the Telegraph (which is of course strongly Brexit) shows exactly the opposite (but with a don't know of around 20%) That poll has been showing a pro leave consistently since the referendum.

 

[westhinder]

I am afraid you are reading things wrongly. All the polls (for what they are worth) show a very different picture of the reasons for leaving. Nothing to do with the things you mention although it is convenient for some to think so. In addition all polls are showing increasing support for leaving, probably helped by the leaders of the "it must be stopped" crowd have little credibility amongst voters.

I find it fascinating that arguments with which one disagrees are called "false" arguments when nearly all the arguments used in defence of remain (at least in the short term) have proved to be untrue. This does not give one much confidence in the longer term doom and gloom predictions coming from the same sources.

Anyway this has little to do with the question. Apart from the increase in new boat prices (pleased I took the plunge in summer 2015) there has been little impact just as in the rest of our daily lives.

I think you misinterpret my post. I did not say that was my personal opinion, I merely said that was what I saw around me, speaking as a Belgian citizen living in Belgium. Most people here are not very preoccupied with brexit, Europe being far from the minds and Britain even further. Those who do have an opinion, mostly see it as an impoverishment both for Europe and the UK, and are still wondering how it could happen, as the arguments for brexit do not strike them as very sound. Whether you agree with that opinion or not, it is what I hear from the people around me.

 

[Fascadale]

I tend to disagree with that bit of reasoning.
Firstly one has to filter out fake news but it is clear that the effect of immigration, along with the religious consequences has caused considerable damage to society throughout Europe.

I seem to recall that perhaps the greatest damage to society in Europe was done by "Pure bred Aryans". Perhaps a little dilution of "European Stock" may not be a bad thing.

A little knowledge of history is no bad thing.

Worst of all is the fear women have of personal attack. Can you imagine how a woman must feel even if she has only been manhandled. the fear must be enormous & the mental stress everlasting. Have you seen the reports of female joggers in groups in Sweden being escorted by police.

I seem to recall that the Jack and Yorkshire Ripper attacks happened long before large scale European immigration, and what country does John Worboys come from?

Again a little history...................

 

[Capt Popeye]

I seem to recall that the Jack and Yorkshire Ripper attacks happened long before large scale European immigration, and what country does John Worboys come from?

Again a little history...................

Humm well, lets put this into perspective, shall we? then look at any overviews ?

UK citizens = 3 (on your own numbers)

EU immigrants (inc dual Nationality) = 10 in Rochdale area + ? spread round the country (numbers withheld on account of ??)

Do you detect any pattern emerging ?

Poss not, but try again ?

 

[Tranona]

I think you misinterpret my post. I did not say that was my personal opinion, I merely said that was what I saw around me, speaking as a Belgian citizen living in Belgium. Most people here are not very preoccupied with brexit, Europe being far from the minds and Britain even further. Those who do have an opinion, mostly see it as an impoverishment both for Europe and the UK, and are still wondering how it could happen, as the arguments for brexit do not strike them as very sound. Whether you agree with that opinion or not, it is what I hear from the people around me.

Appreciate that. Your observation about what others think is at the heart of the debate. "They" which includes a big section of the UK population fail to see the EU from the perspective of the people who perceive no benefit and in many cases a significant loss as a consequence of the expanding EU. You only have to look at the parts of the country that voted strongly for leave to see what the root causes are. The outcome of the referendum and the continuing support comes from mobilising people in that category to participate in the vote.

This explains the divide where there are roughly equal numbers that see benefits as don't see them. It is the former that have held "power", but if you look at the history of opinion of the EU, certainly since the early 90s, the sentiment against has been growing as the consequences of the EU and their effects have become obvious.

So, while many of us here will potentially lose something in relation to our hobby or lifestyle of sailing, that is of very little interest to the majority of the population who have other priorities. Whether their needs will be met in the future only time will tell.