In Gib for Winter. Need to sell boat and get job...

[Cariadco]

To Broker or not?

When I was searching for a boat, many years ago, I travelled all over the UK, looking at broker's boats. Nearly all (brokers) were useless.
Unless I was interested in paying close to the asking price......their interest in me, as a buyer, evaporated.
I did find one that was good, and that was in Lymington.
I eventually purchased a boat in Athens. Me and the dealer are still friends to this day.

Having said all that, when I went after my current boat, the 1st dealer (in Gib') was superb. I didn't have to troll 'round all the brokers, again. Mind you, the internet's a bit different now to when I bought the old boat.

My overall view is to avoid them, if at all possible, and deal with the owner direct.

 

[maby]

When I was searching for a boat, many years ago, I travelled all over the UK, looking at broker's boats. Nearly all (brokers) were useless.
Unless I was interested in paying close to the asking price......their interest in me, as a buyer, evaporated.
I did find one that was good, and that was in Lymington.
I eventually purchased a boat in Athens. Me and the dealer are still friends to this day.

Having said all that, when I went after my current boat, the 1st dealer (in Gib') was superb. I didn't have to troll 'round all the brokers, again. Mind you, the internet's a bit different now to when I bought the old boat.

My overall view is to avoid them, if at all possible, and deal with the owner direct.

We have the opposite experience - saw a second hand boat that we liked, paid a deposit to the broker, got a survey done which identified issues and decided to pull out. The seller got quite hostile and we were really happy that the deposit had gone into the broker's client account rather than the seller's current account. The broker reviewed the survey, agreed that we had sufficient grounds to pull out and refunded the deposit...

 

[chinita]

What annoys me (as you can tell) is those who constantly go on about how useless brokers are.

Sorry if you are annoyed.

Many, posting on these boards, have fully substantiated complaints - not least myself. I have had real issues with brokers over both buying and selling boats

I have said it many times before but one broker sold me a boat with two outstanding mortgages.

It cost me dear in worry and grief.

That wonderful broker cost the seller €20,000 in commission. But that is fine, because he sold his boat for him - didn't he?

So that makes it alright - doesn't it?

 

[maby]

Sorry if you are annoyed.

Many, posting on these boards, have fully substantiated complaints - not least myself. I have had real issues with brokers over both buying and selling boats

I have said it many times before but one broker sold me a boat with two outstanding mortgages.

It cost me dear in worry and grief.

That wonderful broker cost the seller €20,000 in commission. But that is fine, because he sold his boat for him - didn't he?

So that makes it alright - doesn't it?

I'm not sure that you should expect the broker to protect you against that sort of thing. They are, in effect, estate agents for boats - and your estate agent does not get involved to that level of detail. When you buy a house, you engage a solicitor to run those sort of checks and you can do the same for a boat. We looked seriously at a boat earlier in the year that had a very chequered history - it had belonged to a drugs barron and we were concerned that there might be some legal claim on it. We spoke to a solicitor who specialised in marine conveyancing and he would have been able to run the necessary checks. In the end we decided to go for a different boat, so we did not need his services...

Ultimately, for a significant transaction such as the purchase of an expensive boat, you really need a middle man to hold the cash pending the completion of the purchase. A solicitor would do the job, but would cost more than a broker in most cases. If I'm spending multiple tens of thousands of pounds, I do not want to hand over the money to the seller until I'm sure that everything is going through as expected.

 

[jonic]

I'm not sure that you should expect the broker to protect you against that sort of thing. They are, in effect, estate agents for boats - and your estate agent does not get involved to that level of detail. When you buy a house, you engage a solicitor to run those sort of checks and you can do the same for a boat. We looked seriously at a boat earlier in the year that had a very chequered history - it had belonged to a drugs barron and we were concerned that there might be some legal claim on it. We spoke to a solicitor who specialised in marine conveyancing and he would have been able to run the necessary checks. In the end we decided to go for a different boat, so we did not need his services...

Ultimately, for a significant transaction such as the purchase of an expensive boat, you really need a middle man to hold the cash pending the completion of the purchase. A solicitor would do the job, but would cost more than a broker in most cases. If I'm spending multiple tens of thousands of pounds, I do not want to hand over the money to the seller until I'm sure that everything is going through as expected.

An ABYA broker will (or should) run checks. I have just sold a boat today and prior to exchanging contracts checked its full history back to original builders certificate, collated every original bill of sale, researched the VAT history with original invoices, ran a transcript from the registry, ran the details of current and previous owners through the finance houses and photo ID'd the owner along with a three stage signed declaration.

The purchasers cash was held in trust in my client account at Lloyd's until all the checks came back clear. Then I simultaneously transfer the funds to the owner and execute the new bill of sale in favour of the purchaser.

I do that for every boat I sell.

 

[chinita]

I'm not sure that you should expect the broker to protect you against that sort of thing. They are, in effect, estate agents for boats - and your estate agent does not get involved to that level of detail. When you buy a house, you engage a solicitor to run those sort of checks and you can do the same for a boat. We looked seriously at a boat earlier in the year that had a very chequered history - it had belonged to a drugs barron and we were concerned that there might be some legal claim on it. We spoke to a solicitor who specialised in marine conveyancing and he would have been able to run the necessary checks. In the end we decided to go for a different boat, so we did not need his services...

Ultimately, for a significant transaction such as the purchase of an expensive boat, you really need a middle man to hold the cash pending the completion of the purchase. A solicitor would do the job, but would cost more than a broker in most cases. If I'm spending multiple tens of thousands of pounds, I do not want to hand over the money to the seller until I'm sure that everything is going through as expected.

Sorry, the broker is supposed to check with Part I Registry for outstanding charges (the vendor cannot do that). He did not. He only contacted the MCA after he had received my full payment. The vendor committed a criminal offence by signing the Bill of Sale to the effect that there were no outstanding liens and charges. The net result of this was that I did not legally own the boat for another five months. Either of the creditors could have seized it. I could not register it in my name, my insurance was void and I was in breach of my marina contract as i needed at least third party insurance.

All because of an idle broker who was NOT DOING HIS JOB.

I know this because the YDSA advised me to sue the broker - he was a member of that organisation.

I totally agree that a solicitor should handle the financial transaction and this should be included within the brokers commission. Why? Well, I could set up as a broker tomorrow. Would you be happy handing me several hundreds of thousands of pounds? I think not.

Solicitors charge flat rates for conveyancing. I have just sold a house and the solicitors bill was £800.00. The estate agent BTW charged just 1%.........yes ONE percent.

 

[chinita]

Jonic and i were posting at the same time.

Yes, it is brilliant what he does.

However, it is NOT my experience! I am sorry to say that but it is just NOT!

The absolute, very minimum which should be done for a Part I Registered vessel is to check with the MCA as soon as a deposit has been received.

Not even this fundamental check was made.

And, guess what......no apology, no humility, no explanation. Disgraceful.

 

[jonic]

Jonic and i were posting at the same time.

Yes, it is brilliant what he does.

However, it is NOT my experience! I am sorry to say that but it is just NOT!

The absolute, very minimum which should be done for a Part I Registered vessel is to check with the MCA as soon as a deposit has been received.

Not even this fundamental check was made.

And, guess what......no apology, no humility, no explanation. Disgraceful.

I agree. Totally unacceptable, shoddy and amateurish.

You should sue. But I know why you couldn't. Am I right that this was an overseas broker?

I run a basic check before I even agree to take the boat on, then full checks upon listing, well before anyone even sets foot on the boat. Then a final check just before handover.

Because of the system (or lack of) in the UK we can not guard against a deliberate fraud by the owner, but that's why I insist on passport ID. I have never had an issue and am insured if I am negligent.

I have refused to take on several boats though.

One guy took great offence at me asking for his passport and accused me of wanting to steal his identity!

I did a due diligence check through the paperwork and found he only legally owned half the boat so dropped him like a hot potato.

 

[chinita]

John

Started giving the details but then checked my pms to see that I had already corresponded with you in the past on this subject.

I deleted the post.

Age catching up I am afraid.

 

[jonic]

John

Started giving the details but then checked my pms to see that I had already corresponded with you in the past on this subject.

I deleted the post.

Age catching up I am afraid.

No worries

 

[Tranona]

Sorry if you are annoyed.

Many, posting on these boards, have fully substantiated complaints - not least myself. I have had real issues with brokers over both buying and selling boats

I have said it many times before but one broker sold me a boat with two outstanding mortgages.

It cost me dear in worry and grief.

That wonderful broker cost the seller €20,000 in commission. But that is fine, because he sold his boat for him - didn't he?

So that makes it alright - doesn't it?

Equally, many thousands of transactions go through without any difficulties - you don't hear about them because the parties have nothing to make an issue about.

This is not to deny your own bad experience, but if failures like this were systemic the system would have collapsed long ago.

There is a saying that "a way of seeing is a way of not seeing" So if you go looking for the exceptions that is what you will find, because you are ignoring everything else on the way. If the "exceptions" turn out to be the norm then action is required, but there will always be exceptions in any system.

It is good to know about transactions that go wrong, and to understand the reasons so that you can avoid the same thing happening to you, but in a sense you rarely know the full story because you only hear one side. Often when you really dig you find that there is more to the story than you hear from one party, and as there is rarely an independent account unless the case comes to court (and even then it may not reveal the full story) you will always have reservations about what really happened.

As Maby commented, there is often real value in dealing through an intermediary, as it puts the transaction on a more neutral, business like level. Buying and selling boats can be very emotional for both parties and there can be very large sums at stake. To think that two individuals can meet out of the blue and carry out the transaction without any third party involvement and without the potential for things to go wrong is a big "ask".

At the end of the day you have to recognise that there will always be a role for intermediaries where transactions of any size and complexity are between two individuals simply because of the practical difficulties in getting two individuals together in agreement about the transaction which will inevitably be a one off.

 

[[27631]]

selling boat in Gib...

In Gib. at the moment....if you want to sell a boat like that...Gib.,or Southern Spain is not the place to do it!!
Better off doing it in the UK or Northern Europe..values are higher.
Down here you will just get silly offers...from people who either...don't have the money,or from people who have the money...but want the boat for half it's value...so they can sell it elsewhere...for a largish profit... AND...the brokers down here will negotiate a lower commission.They are all trying to maintain their lifestyle in the sun!!!
Ask...and you will get 5 or 6%...and no vat here...
But..what do I know...I have only bought 4 in the last 2 1/2 years!!!

 

[chinita]

At the end of the day you have to recognise that there will always be a role for intermediaries where transactions of any size and complexity are between two individuals simply because of the practical difficulties in getting two individuals together in agreement about the transaction which will inevitably be a one off.

I think you are missing my point.

I want MORE intermediary involvement, not less. BUT I want quality and performance from the intermediary.

I have just said, I recently sold a house using and agent and a solicitor. I did not consider, even for one second, attempting to do the job myself. No problem with that. Why? because they are so regulated that they cannot afford to fail.

I don't quite understand your argument. On the one hand you don't seem to be much in favour of further regulation, on the other you are saying there is a role for an intermediary (broker) in transactions of 'size and complexity'. Are you suggesting that this role should be carried out by unregulated brokers?

Please don't cite ABYA as a regulatory body.

 

[Tranona]

I don't think there is a case for "more regulation". This is only needed if there is a demonstrable case of public interest.

We are dealing with transactions that involve (primarily) private property between two private individuals and the existing well proven laws of contract and agency are generally adequate to deal with any disputes. Inevitably not all disputes are resolved to the satisfaction of both parties - that is the nature of disputes. However it is difficult to see what form of external regulation would avoid disputes completely.

As we have seen in other fields, law and regulation based on single cases is usually bad and any independent review of the current system is unlikely to find failure on a scale that would justify any further regulation which would inevitably increase costs and bureaucracy with no real benefit.

 

[DecaDance]

Wow,

Not had WiFi for a few days. Lots of responses and lots to think about. We live on the boat and we're not desperate to sell but need to look into the legalities. The boat's only a year old and we're having warranty work done this Winter.

Agree with the comments about a %age commission, don't agree the effort increases proportionately with the price, just like houses, but I managed to negotiate a deal with my estate agent when selling a house...

What a headache!

Cheers everyone

 

[capnsensible]

Hiya, sorry you are selling up! Do remember earlier chats, oh well.

Are you STCW qualified? If so, try Dolphin Adventure at Marina Bay, maybe looking to hire crew although season is marginal now.

Gaming Companies are a good bet (snigger), really!!! Big staff turnover.

Good Luck!!

 

[gonad]

boat sale try apollo duck

apollo duck

 

[jonic]

I must go down to the seas again, to the vagrant gypsy life,
To the gull's way and the whale's way, where the wind's like a whetted knife;
And all I ask is a merry yarn from a laughing fellow-rover,
And quiet sleep and a sweet dream when the long trick's over.

 

[DecaDance]

Cheers Captain Sensible,

We're not giving up living aboard, just looking at a smaller / cheaper boat. Must have that sundowner with you some time. Thanks Gonad and I'll keep in touch Jonic. Just watched the Remembrance Sunday Service here - very moving.

 

[ean_p]

so what went wrong with the dream DD? if you don't mind me asking....... seem to think that i remember your planning and enthusiasm to go for it a while back ?