westernman
Well-Known Member
A bow thruster does not have to be fitted to the boat.
Some one in a dink with an outboard works just fine.
Otherwise a warp hooked up to something (Ok a puller rather than a thruster).
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improving steerage in reverse?
- Thread starter Mike Bryon
- Start date
Some one in a dink with an outboard works just fine.
Otherwise a warp hooked up to something (Ok a puller rather than a thruster).
LittleSister
Well-Known Member
No, you are mistaken. His actual question was 'Anyone willing to share experience/advice on how her performance in reverse could be improved most welcome'.
The he mentioned 'For example . . .' that he wondered if a different prop might help. Just because most respondents, including you, have focused on that aspect doesn't mean everyone has to ignore the wider question.
But even if my two penn'orth is no help to him, it might be of use or interest to someone else, and even otherwise is hardly in anyone's way.
I disagree. There are numerous ways to improve control going astern - mostly to do with the 'nut' at the front end to the tiller / behind the wheel - of which getting a bow thruster is just one.
ducked
Well-Known Member
Perhaps an electric trolling motor off the bow could give some bow thrustoid function without having to cut holes in your boat.
ducked
Well-Known Member
IIRC (reading of them, not seeing them) some WW1 destroyers had bow rudders.
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Daydream believer
Well-Known Member
So did some of the ferries that went in to Ostend. They went in bow first & shot out in reverse with a great bow section steering the vessel.
wonkywinch
Well-Known Member
We've got twin rudders which means no prop wash. We moor stern to in home berth and the technique I use involves a massive slug of power to get the boat moving astern, then tickle the throttle until it's almost moored and time to stop. Then a chunk of forward and we're in.
If the wind is calm or blowing onto the pontoon finger, job done, otherwise get a cleat lassooed on the way in.
If the wind is calm or blowing onto the pontoon finger, job done, otherwise get a cleat lassooed on the way in.
dunedin
Well-Known Member
No of course a bow thruster does not “have to be fitted”. But as I suggested, if a decent sized boat and a “keeper”, then it might be the best solution. And if so, the sooner it is fitted the better the return on investment.
“Someone in a dinghy with an outboard” might work for a one off to deliver a recalcitrant boat out of an awkward berth.
But is not a practical ongoing solution for getting in and out of various marina berths. And useless solo. Unlike a bow thruster, on both counts.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
On a 40' boat weighing about 9 tonnes, which is what the OP has (although you may not have known that)
westernman
Well-Known Member
When I parked my boat in Port Rosas in Spain, the "someone in a dinghy with an outboard" worked perfectly every time. Very efficient and practical.
The marinero who drove the dinghy knew exactly what needed to be done and I could easily reverse directly into my tight berth (for a boat 2m shorter than mine) in my boat which is totally unpredictable in reverse.
Of course if it is your dinghy and it is going to be the mother in law who is driving it, makes it a somewhat different proposition.
wonkywinch
Well-Known Member
The kind harbourmistress used their rib to push us sideways to raft up to someone in Yarmouth marina one veey windy day last summer.
Saved loads of embarrasing bzzzzt bzzzzt noises from the bow thruster!
Saved loads of embarrasing bzzzzt bzzzzt noises from the bow thruster!
Chiara’s slave
Well-Known Member
The Yarmouth harbour team seem to delight in assisting awkward boats. Truth is, they do love a classic here, would love to fill their harbour with pre 1970 yachts I think. All of which are sods in reverse. So they have a solution to pack them in.
doug748
Well-Known Member
Many Continental marinas have staff in ribs during working hours, they know very well how to assist boats into a berth.
Even the youngsters who fill in are very handy in this respect. A few years ago I saw 4 or 5 boats pulled away from a pontoon by a rib using very little power, once you are into the wind all is peace and easy
Even the youngsters who fill in are very handy in this respect. A few years ago I saw 4 or 5 boats pulled away from a pontoon by a rib using very little power, once you are into the wind all is peace and easy
Tranona
Well-Known Member
That is just not practical in most UK marinas, particularly for berth holders. You have to be self sufficient. As always in these debates people talk about all this practising as if it makes the whole problem go away whereas at best it leads to minor improvements. Why is it so difficult to accept that this is not some reality TV challenge and if you have a tricky berth and a tricky boat then it makes sense to use whatever is available in terms of equipment to make your life easier. Once you have your bow thruster you still have to learn how to use it as the boat behaves differently but you soon learrn how to use the benefit of being able to steer the front of the boat.
mjcoon
Well-Known Member
Years ago we took out charter yacht to Turgutreis marina (round the corner from Bodrum, Turkey) when it was quite new and almost empty. There were several keen staff in launches to assist us, giving contradictory instructions!
AntarcticPilot
Well-Known Member
The bottom line is that going forward, the rudder deflects the propwash, enhancing the steering effect, so that going forward you can almost turn in the boat's length, and can turn while almost stationary. In reverse, only the flow of water past the rudder is deflected, and at low speeds, this may be insufficient to overcome prop-walk and/or wind. So in reverse, you need to have steerage way before the rudder has any effect.
A technique I have found to work on my Moody 31 (fin keel, rudder on a skeg, conventional stern gear with the propeller just forward of the rudder) is to centre the rudder, give a burst astern at a high throttle setting to get her moving, engine in neutral and THEN steer. This works about 9 times out of 10, providing the wind and the prop-walk aren't in the same direction!
A technique I have found to work on my Moody 31 (fin keel, rudder on a skeg, conventional stern gear with the propeller just forward of the rudder) is to centre the rudder, give a burst astern at a high throttle setting to get her moving, engine in neutral and THEN steer. This works about 9 times out of 10, providing the wind and the prop-walk aren't in the same direction!
Chiara’s slave
Well-Known Member
This topic is probably one of the more common debates. So being ‘unable to handle your boat in reverse’ is common, and nothing to be ashamed of. It happens to everryone with the wrong underwater profile. It’s not something we suffer from, no sir. We have a whole new set of problems
But we’ve got used to them after a few years with the boat. And that generally seems to be the case. A friend has a C32 in Yarmouth, and a horribly awkward berth. It’s just got easier over time. He too thought he’d have to swap his fixed 2 blade prop, but it’s still on there. He goes forwards into the berth, reverses out, with the front end covered in fenders. The odd rubbery bounce of the pontoon or his neighbour is par for the course. OP you should see our antics coming alongside in a stiff easterly. We reverse up to our pontoon, stern line on, pass the bow line from a cockpit winch to the fwd fairlead, back outside everything to the correct cleat. Then we winch her in. Undignified but safe.
But we’ve got used to them after a few years with the boat. And that generally seems to be the case. A friend has a C32 in Yarmouth, and a horribly awkward berth. It’s just got easier over time. He too thought he’d have to swap his fixed 2 blade prop, but it’s still on there. He goes forwards into the berth, reverses out, with the front end covered in fenders. The odd rubbery bounce of the pontoon or his neighbour is par for the course. OP you should see our antics coming alongside in a stiff easterly. We reverse up to our pontoon, stern line on, pass the bow line from a cockpit winch to the fwd fairlead, back outside everything to the correct cleat. Then we winch her in. Undignified but safe.
samfieldhouse
Well-Known Member
I too have a longish fin, skew mounted rudder but no room for a folding prop - there’s about 60mm between the prop and skeg.
My top tips would be:
I went with practice, lots of it. On still days, leaving my berth and pottering around in astern to see what she’d do.
I’ve learnt that she pulls HARD to port in astern. This is brilliant for backing into finger berths.
In wind speeds greater than 17kts I have to moor bow in.
She will ‘crab’ her way in astern, sitting at about 30 degrees at about 1300rpm.
I regularly ‘spin her on warps’ by taking a long line from the stern and pivoting her round on the bow. My motto is ‘just get moored up’ - I can walk her into any berth so there’s no point messing around trying to do fancy manoeuvres.
Just because a berth in master wants you port side to in X position doesn’t mean you have to go there initially. You can walk/warp her into position once you’re tied up.
Massive caveat - I have a 28ft boat. This is one of the reasons I wouldn’t go much bigger
My top tips would be:
Master your prop walk.
Learn to use ropes.
Be assertive in not bending to the will of berthing masters who want to pop you in unfavourable berths. You know what your boat will do, dont try and make it do something it won’t!
I went with practice, lots of it. On still days, leaving my berth and pottering around in astern to see what she’d do.
I’ve learnt that she pulls HARD to port in astern. This is brilliant for backing into finger berths.
In wind speeds greater than 17kts I have to moor bow in.
She will ‘crab’ her way in astern, sitting at about 30 degrees at about 1300rpm.
I regularly ‘spin her on warps’ by taking a long line from the stern and pivoting her round on the bow. My motto is ‘just get moored up’ - I can walk her into any berth so there’s no point messing around trying to do fancy manoeuvres.
Just because a berth in master wants you port side to in X position doesn’t mean you have to go there initially. You can walk/warp her into position once you’re tied up.
Massive caveat - I have a 28ft boat. This is one of the reasons I wouldn’t go much bigger
wonkywinch
Well-Known Member
I also realised a while back that "bow in, port side to" is confirmation of berth and which side the finger is on. It's (usually) perfectly acceptable to do the opposite without asking, eg stern in, starboard side to. We have a large folding bathing platform which makes boarding easier so tend to go stern in when wind/tide allow that approach.
DreadShips
Well-Known Member
One more word in favour of tuition - some boats really need a good whack to get them to behave, particularly if you need to gain speed quickly to get any rudder authority, but it's often hard to steel yourself to give it a good blast to see what happens. Not least if you feel like the whole marina is watching.
Having a good instructor alongside you to help foresee the risks, provide a second pair of eyes, and occasionally goad you into being a bit braver might well be the answer you need. And even if not it'll give you a second opinion on what, if anything, can be easily changed to make life easier from somebody who has seen how it handles.
Having a good instructor alongside you to help foresee the risks, provide a second pair of eyes, and occasionally goad you into being a bit braver might well be the answer you need. And even if not it'll give you a second opinion on what, if anything, can be easily changed to make life easier from somebody who has seen how it handles.
wonkywinch
Well-Known Member
And don't forget, ours is one of the few hobbies where big inflatable balls to protect your asset are standard equipment.