improving steerage in reverse?

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Mike Bryon

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My yacht is slow to gain steerage in reverse. It makes tight marina movements challenging. She has a longish fin keel, full skeg hung rudder and sail drive (so hardly any prop walk). Anyone willing to share experience/advice on how her performance in reverse could be improved most welcome.

For example, she has a flexofold propeller could a fixed three blade improve matters (I have asked flexofold for suggestions).
Thanks in anticipation.
 
I've found that some folding propellers need a brief burst ahead to make sure the blades are fully out before engaging astern.

With saildrives, I've often discovered, especially as there is hardly any propwalk, a good hard burst astern gets you steerage way and then ease the revs. I've used this particularly on Bavarias from 36 to 46 feet.
 
On my UFO 31 I changed from a fixed 3 blade to a Darglow Featherstream 3 blade feathering prop. This made a huge improvement to handling in reverse. Other people have said the opposite is true, so no guarantee.
Two tricks I've learnt,
1/ don't think about it too hard, just let muscle memory guide you.
2/ see where the boat wants to go and pretend that is what you wanted.
Find a bit of empty water with no audience and practice.
 
What length of boat and is it a “keeper”?
If over 35 foot and plan on keeping for a while, consider fitting a bow thruster (plus remote) NOW to get maximum value from it, and to minimise stress. Only need to save one avoidable crunch in the next decade to pay back.
 
A change of prop may help with initial acceleration but it won't change the laws of physics. Your boat will have its own way of acquiring angular momentum, and it is having this momentum in mind that makes steering, forwards or astern, come naturally. If your boat is truly reluctant to obey, which I am happy to accept, then it is by the judicious use of throttle and making use of the wind and if necessary warps, that safe passage can be gained. As others say, this means practice, and I would add - just avoid any situation from which there is no safe exit strategy.
 
Similar configuration, as previous post, needs quite a few revs to get momentum and water flow over rudder then ease revs.
Little movement until about 1 boat length then turn starts and rapidly increases.
As Dan says its all practice, difficult in a marina to get momentum to turn bow into wind, just plan and reverse all the way.
 
Bow thruster if the problem mainly control. In terms of more progressive control over thrust then a 3 bladed Featherstream will likely be better than a 2 blade Flexofold, not just for the greater blade area but because you can have the pitch set differently in reverse. A fixed 3 blade might also be better but at a significant loss in sailing performance.

If you can get good forward speed out with your Flexofold then suggest for low speed in marinas a bow thruster is a better route. Once you have one and learn how to use it stress levels will drop!
 
Practice in open water, ideally with little or no current, near buoys or other markers which will enable you to judge movement and turning, to asses -

- how fast your boat moves sideways and how it turns, and how fast, with engine disengaged and rudder central, then at different speeds and rudder angles;

- what speed you need for the rudder to work effectively;

- what angle(s) the rudder works best at given different speeds. Typically once you are moving at enough speed an excessive rudder angle will stall the rudder (it will not be working as an effective hydrofoil) so normally you will not want more than, say, 20 or perhaps 30 degrees of rudder to its path through the water. You can increase tiller angle as the boat starts turning as the rudders path through the water will no longer be aligned with the boat. You may or may not find that a greater angle gives more of a turning effort at very low speeds before there is enough speed through the water for the rudder to work as a foil; and

- how much 'welly' you need to apply to the engine (quite likely more than you think) to quickly get the boat moving to a speed where the rudder is effective, and how quickly you can shut it off and 'coast' under the boat's momentum or perhaps on tickover, so as not to be doing unnecessarily high speed in confined spaces.

Some have suggested on here running the motor in reverse (assuming you are backing out) for a short while before untying for departure, to get some flow of water over the rudder established.

Also practise using lines from the boat to the pontoon and back to turn it as you exit your berth. Warping a boat (with engine off) around to turn it or put it in a different position/berth is a neglected skill/practice that can be very useful, especially if short-handed or in high winds or currents, and is also worth practising.

It's very important to assess and be aware of the wind and current situation at the time around the particular berth you are leaving or entering. Not just in general, but are there obstructions in the water (e.g. floats under pontoons) that are reducing or channeling (i.e. increasing) the current flow in various positions around your intended route, and likewise with wind as a result of e.g. walls, taller boat adjacent, etc. Don't be taken by surprise! Use these to your advantage where possible to help turn the boat, and where adverse consider how you are going to mitigate the problem. If it's going to be hard to turn the bow into the wind, consider turning the other way then proceeding stern to the wind.

If you get yourself in a pIckle, don't panic. You can usually just stop, stern to the wind near the upwind boats, pontoon, or whatever, and use tickover or little bursts of power (or even put a line from the stern to a cleat on an upwind boat or pontoon and back to your boat), and just hang there while you recover your sang froid (a Hamlet cigar may come in handy!) and consider what's the best way to proceed, whether there's an alternative way of proceeding (there usually is), or what you need to do differently to achieve the manoeuvre that didn't work first time.

Consider getting some "Own Boat' tuition on close quarters manouevring from someone (ideally, but not necessarily) a qualified instructor who has a lot of experience in different types of boat, and is good at communicating/explaining. I was amazed at how much I learnt on this topic as part of a Coastal Skipper/Yachtmaster course years ago. I ended up being able to turn a boat {long fin, skeg-hung rudder, but prop immediately fwd of rudder] through 360 degrees in a space just a few inches longer than its LOA - something I hadn't realised was physically possible, let alone within my capabilities.

An alternative course of action would be to get yourself for a while a boat with a full long keel, narrow keel-hung rudder and two-bladed prop in a cut-out in that rudder. When you come back to your long fin and skeg-hung rudder, it will seem a piece of cake! ;)
 
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Might the steerability of an outboard be an asset for slow speed manouvring?

You probably already have one, and if you dont have a mothership mounting for it could possibly lash something up for temporary testing. Swamping and "cavitation" (aeration) issues are likely to be relatively less significant in this context, because it;ll mostly be sheltered waters.

Perhaps an electric trolling motor off the bow could give some bow thrustoid function without having to cut holes in your boat.
 
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DanTribe said:
On my UFO 31 I changed from a fixed 3 blade to a Darglow Featherstream 3 blade feathering prop. This made a huge improvement to handling in reverse. Other people have said the opposite is true, so no guarantee.
Two tricks I've learnt,
1/ don't think about it too hard, just let muscle memory guide you.
2/ see where the boat wants to go and pretend that is what you wanted.
Find a bit of empty water with no audience and practice.
Click to expand...
No. 2. Best piece of advice on here. Lol
 
Needs water flow over the rudder for steerage - No water flow, no steerage - if bow to tide need to be going backwards faster than the tide before steerage which can be quite quick - soon run out of space -Tom Cunliffe did a good video - Never have had reverse - just rope around and point in right direction if pointing the wrong way and too narrow to turn.
 
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ducked said:
Might the steerability of an outboard be an asset for slow speed manouvring?

You probably already have one, and if you dont have a mothership mounting for it could possibly lash something up for temporary testing. Swamping and "cavitation" (aeration) issues are likely to be relatively less significant in this context, because it;ll mostly be sheltered waters.
Click to expand...

Or launch the tender with the outboard and use that as a bow or stern thruster as needed.

Of course that means having two people who know what they are doing - one in the tender and one on the mother ship.
 
westernman said:
Or launch the tender with the outboard and use that as a bow or stern thruster as needed.

Of course that means having two people who know what they are doing - one in the tender and one on the mother ship.
Click to expand...
The chances of having two knowledgeable people in close proximity who can communicate are pretty slim I reckon.:)
 
Mike Bryon said:
My yacht is slow to gain steerage in reverse. It makes tight marina movements challenging. She has a longish fin keel, full skeg hung rudder and sail drive (so hardly any prop walk). Anyone willing to share experience/advice on how her performance in reverse could be improved most welcome.

For example, she has a flexofold propeller could a fixed three blade improve matters (I have asked flexofold for suggestions).
Thanks in anticipation.
Click to expand...

A fixed 3 blade prop could significantly increase prop walk. You then have the issue of the stern wandering off before any reverse steerage is generated. It can be compensated for in advance if space allows. If along side and you need to reverse out, with lines set to slip, increase reverse power and start the water flowing before slipping lines, get a decent momentum of flow up, then slip lines and cut back own throttle as soon as speed increases. I learned this on here from a chap who did a boat handling course and he called it "making a sternboard" if I recall correctly. With a fixed, 3 x blade propellor, this method may not work, as soon as the lines slip, the stern rapidly kicks, unless power is reduced smartly.

Alternative methods can be found in in Duncan Wells books, which may give you ideas e.g. Amazon.co.uk and Amazon.co.uk
 
LittleSister said:
Practice in open water, ideally with little or no current, near buoys or other markers which will enable you to judge movement and turning, to asses -

- how fast your boat moves sideways and how it turns, and how fast, with engine disengaged and rudder central, then at different speeds and rudder angles;

- what speed you need for the rudder to work effectively;

- what angle(s) the rudder works best at given different speeds. Typically once you are moving at enough speed an excessive rudder angle will stall the rudder (it will not be working as an effective hydrofoil) so normally you will not want more than, say, 20 or perhaps 30 degrees of rudder to its path through the water. You can increase tiller angle as the boat starts turning as the rudders path through the water will no longer be aligned with the boat. You may or may not find that a greater angle gives more of a turning effort at very low speeds before there is enough speed through the water for the rudder to work as a foil; and

- how much 'welly' you need to apply to the engine (quite likely more than you think) to quickly get the boat moving to a speed where the rudder is effective, and how quickly you can shut it off and 'coast' under the boat's momentum or perhaps on tickover, so as not to be doing unnecessarily high speed in confined spaces.

Some have suggested on here running the motor in reverse (assuming you are backing out) for a short while before untying for departure, to get some flow of water over the rudder established.

Also practise using lines from the boat to the pontoon and back to turn it as you exit your berth. Warping a boat (with engine off) around to turn it or put it in a different position/berth is a neglected skill/practice that can be very useful, especially if short-handed or in high winds or currents, and is also worth practising.

It's very important to assess and be aware of the wind and current situation at the time around the particular berth you are leaving or entering. Not just in general, but are there obstructions in the water (e.g. floats under pontoons) that are reducing or channeling (i.e. increasing) the current flow in various positions around your intended route, and likewise with wind as a result of e.g. walls, taller boat adjacent, etc. Don't be taken by surprise! Use these to your advantage where possible to help turn the boat, and where adverse consider how you are going to mitigate the problem. If it's going to be hard to turn the bow into the wind, consider turning the other way then proceeding stern to the wind.

If you get yourself in a pIckle, don't panic. You can usually just stop, stern to the wind near the upwind boats, pontoon, or whatever, and use tickover or little bursts of power (or even put a line from the stern to a cleat on an upwind boat or pontoon and back to your boat), and just hang there while you recover your sang froid (a Hamlet cigar may come in handy!) and consider what's the best way to proceed, whether there's an alternative way of proceeding (there usually is), or what you need to do differently to achieve the manoeuvre that didn't work first time.

Consider getting some "Own Boat' tuition on close quarters manouevring from someone (ideally, but not necessarily) a qualified instructor who has a lot of experience in different types of boat, and is good at communicating/explaining. I was amazed at how much I learnt on this topic as part of a Coastal Skipper/Yachtmaster course years ago. I ended up being able to turn a boat through 360 degrees in a space just a few inches longer than its LOA - something I hadn't realised was physically possible, let alone within my capabilities.

An alternative course of action would be to get yourself for a while a boat with a full long keel, narrow keel-hung rudder and two-bladed prop in a cut-out in that rudder. When you come back to your long fin and skeg-hung rudder, it will seem a piece of cake! ;)
Click to expand...
Suspect the OP knows all that.

His question was whether a different prop would help - which it might for getting greater waterflow over the prop. However one has to accept that no matter what you do control going astern with that type of boat is limited and the only way of real improvement is to have some control over the other end of the boat - hence a bow thruster is recommended.
 
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