Impeding explained

[calamitys38]

Just re-read the post a while back regarding giving way in a TSS and a comment was made by one poster that the phrase "avoid impeding the passage of" was one of the most missunderstood parts of the Rules. I quite agree and for what its worth - here's one of the best explanations I've ever heard and one I teach my students:

Consider two cars approaching a traffic junction. Your traffic light is green and the other cars traffic light is red. You obviously are the "stand on" car and the other one is required to "give way". No problems so far.

However, if the the other car was an emergency vehicle with "blues and twos" going, although his traffic light is red and he is therefore the "give way" car, presumably you would allow the emergency vehicle through and therefore would "not impede his passage". If you did not do this and continued through your green light as you are perfectly entitled to do as the emergency vehicles light was red, they would have to give way as the normal Highway Code dictates, but you would be a complete f u k w i t.

This simile is exactly the same at sea. You are in a Power Driven Vessel (PDV) and have another on your Port side crossing - it is the give way vessel and you are stand on. However, if the other vessel was Constrained by her Draft, you are required not to impede her passage and would hopefully take action to allow her passage. The other vessel however, still remains the Give Way vessel.

Same again in a TSS. A sailing vessel should not impede the passage of a PDV. However, if it does, normal steering and sailing rules continue to apply and the PDV should give way to sail - but like the simile with the emergency vehicle above - you would still be a complete f u k w i t to make the PDV do this

Hope this helps?

 

[Evadne]

A good point, and I like the simile.
The same also applies to vessels keeping to the right hand side of a channel, nowhere in the rules (or in commonsense) does anyone have the right to "stand on" if it means that a collision will result.

 

[snowleopard]

I heard there was an instructor at BRNC Dartmouth who taught a generation of young officers that 'not impede' meant that ships in a TSS had right of way. It caused no end of problems in the Dover straits as warships ploughed on in the face of ferries approaching from their starboard sides.

 

[calamitys38]

Snowleopard

My point exactly. Not Impeding is really missunderstiood by many, that's why I used the simile of driving and not impeding Emergency Vehicles, which seems to strike the right bell.

On your other point - I couldn't say whether there was or was not an Instructor at BRNC who taught as you say - but it would not surprise me. The problem with the RN and their RoR teaching is that they test themselves with written tests rather than have the Oral examination that MN officers undergo. My criticism of the RNs written test is that if you don't know the answer to a question, you can leave it and come back to it later. There is no way you can do this in an Oral exam and your answer will then guide the examiner on his next question that will test your understanding of the content and intent of the Rules.

 

[bromleybysea]

I'm not sure it's as simple as this. The rule (10 j) says "safe passage" and the rules do seem to distinguish between "impeeding safe passage" and "impeding passage" .The qualifying word "safe" I have always taken to mean that in these cases, the normal rules apply unless by complying the give-way vessel would be placed in danger. If I am crossing the TSS under sail and I see a PDV in the distance on a constant bearing, and I can see that he can safely alter course slightly to pass under my stern then I would expect him to do so, obviously taking avoiding action myself if a close-quarters situation develops.

 

[calamitys38]

Hmmmm

Having talked this over with MCA examiners, they make no distinction between "passage" and "safe passage". As far as they are concerned, if you should not impede the passage or safe passage of another vessel, then you should take early action to do this in accordance with Rule 8 (f).

The point about impeding is that it does not confer any special status on the vessel that is not to be impeded, other than to show it some courtesy and play the good samaritan as per the simile with the Emergency Vehicle in my original post. The Highway Code is explicit - if your traffic Light is red you should stop. An Emergency Vehicle with blues and twos going does not have a "right of way" but is purely "asking" other vehicles to give it some courtesy and let it through. The operative word is "asking". It is the same at sea. Impeding is "asking" other vessels not to get in the way.

With regard to your last point, I would humbly suggest that it is extremely difficult for a small vessel to accurately determine whether it is "safe" for them to impede a large PDV and make it alter course for them in (for example) a TSS. Your horizon is limited (what other vessels are around the the PDV is concerned about) and you cannot be sure what limitations the vessel (turning and stopping distances for example) has. I have to admit, that I would work on the basis of "might has right"

 

[snowleopard]

I have to admit, that I would work on the basis of "might has right"

Known in the trade as the "gross tonnage rule" I hear.

 

[lw395]

Interesting simile.
A car at a junction, even 'giving way' to an ambulance is still very likely to be 'impeding' it by simply being there.
From the Shorter OED:
Impede: To obstruct in progress or action, to hinder, to stand in the way of.

Trying to pin this down, Hinder is defined as:
1. to do harm to, speak to the injury of
2 to impede, prevent
3 to delay or frustrate action, to be an impediment.

Is there case law or any clarification published for colregs, like the appeals for RRS?

I think the OP may be partly right for the wrong reasons so to speak, since Rule 10 starts with:
a) This rule.....does not relieve any vessel of her obligation under any other other rule.
Rules 15 Crossing continues to apply then.

Rules 18, (power gives way to sail etc) applies 'except where 9, 10 and 13 otherwise require'

So ships should not be hindered by yachts, but must alter course for them iaw R15 is my reading of it.

I think a rabbit on the M4 is a better simile. Not a VW rabbit either!

I avoid TSS's!

 

[calamitys38]

Interesting simile.

I think the OP may be partly right for the wrong reasons so to speak, since Rule 10 starts with:
a) This rule.....does not relieve any vessel of her obligation under any other other rule.
Rules 15 Crossing continues to apply then.

Rules 18, (power gives way to sail etc) applies 'except where 9, 10 and 13 otherwise require'

So ships should not be hindered by yachts, but must alter course for them iaw R15 is my reading of it.

I think a rabbit on the M4 is a better simile. Not a VW rabbit either!

I avoid TSS's!

Nearly.

Rule 15 only applies between Power Driven Vessels.

Rule 18 states that Power should give way to Sail, but Rule 10 states that Sailing vessels should not impede a PDV in a TSS. However if it does, then Rule 18 is still in force and the PDV remains the "give way" vessel.

As I said in an earlier post - "not impeding" is ASKING other vessels to treat them kindly in the same way as you would give way to an Emergency Vehicle (i.e. pull to the side of the road or let them through a Red traffic light etc). You are not obliged to do this but it is good practice and common sense.

Not sure I understand your Rabbit on the M4? I would just run over the bugger, but when I sail on a large Tanker I would not intend to hit a small vessel.

This is a classic Orals question:

Ques: "You are heading North in the Nortbound lane of a TSS. You see a sailing vessel crossing the lanes travelling from your Port to Starboard side. The Sailing vessel is currently 3 points to port and the bearing is steady and the range is closing. Who is the Give Way vessel?"

Ans: "I am the give way vessel, but the sailing vessel should avoid impeding my passage. If it continues and he does impede my passage I would take the nescessary action to avoid a collision ".

And this is where the problem lies for Large PDV's. Is the yacht going to take action, but becasue of their greater manoeuvrability wait until they are much closer, or are they still under the impression that Power gives way to sail irrespective? Should the PDV slow down (a large VLCC will take 6 miles to stop!!) or alter course to Port to pass under the stern of the yacht (will the yacht suddenly decide now to alter to Starboard?) Should the PDV alter to Starboard - in which case he may not alter the CPA by very much depending on respective speeds and/or may run the risk of getting into a close quaters situation with other PDV's in the TSS or even leaving the TSS (which he may do for collision avoidance) but is a complete embuggerance for him?

You see my point I am sure?

 

[lw395]

Yes I see your point.
"I am the give way vessel, but the sailing vessel should avoid impeding my passage. If it continues and he does impede my passage I would take the nescessary action to avoid a collision ". Very succinct.
The yacht may be in the wrong by impeding you but you are still bound to avoid him.

The point about the rabbit is that you probably wouldn't see it in time to avoid it and wouldn't crash into 87 other cars to save the wabbit.

Not impeding means not getting in the way of, causing to be slowed down or otherwise delaying.
I can't see how you can contort the english to make language 'not impeding' mean 'asking' anything. It means you are obliged to let them pass not slowed down or seriously inconvenienced by your presence.

The fact that R15 only applies between power driven vessels means that in a TSS, a sailing vessel crossing can have less rights than if she were under power.

We should remember that we are only allowed to cross a TSS lane when it is 'not practicable' to avoid doing so. That does not mean 'mildly inconvenient' I suspect.

Thanks for your input, it's made me think about this!
Are the orals questions online anywhere? Or any officially sanctioned interpretation material?
Cheers,

 

[calamitys38]

"Not impeding means not getting in the way of, causing to be slowed down or otherwise delaying.
I can't see how you can contort the english to make language 'not impeding' mean 'asking' anything. It means you are obliged to let them pass not slowed down or seriously inconvenienced by your presence.

The fact that R15 only applies between power driven vessels means that in a TSS, a sailing vessel crossing can have less rights than if she were under power."

1. Avoid Impeding is "asking" other vessels not to get in the way. In Rule 18 for example it says that a PDV SHALL give way to..... The difference is the use of the word "avoid" which is why impeding can become confusing and what I was trying to explain in the first post as I think it is important. To avoid impeding another vessel you are obliged to takle early action under Rule 8, but it is not the same as saying you SHALL give way, which is why I have tried to clarify it by saying it is asking (apologies for contorting the language).

2. I don't understand how you can say that Rule 15 not applying to Sailing vessels gives them "less rights"? Rule 18 is quite clear - a PDV SHALL keep out of the way of a Sailing Vessel. The reason is that it does not matter where the sailing vessel is (to Port or Starboard) if there is a risk of collision with it you give way. If it is head on you are give way. It is only if it is overtaking you - is it the give way vessel. With two PDV's crossing so as to involve risk of collision - there has to be clarification and you give way to the one on your Starboard side which is what Rule 15 says.

 

[lw395]

The phrase 'avoid impeding' does not appear anywhere in rule 10 that I can see. The phrase is 'Shall not impede'. Much more explicit and directive.

Rule 18 does not apply when rule 10 contradicts it, so the sailing vessel is given no rights in a TSS. Whereas rule 10 does not over-ride rule 15, so pdv 's still have some crossing rights.

 

[calamitys38]

The phrase 'avoid impeding' does not appear anywhere in rule 10 that I can see. The phrase is 'Shall not impede'. Much more explicit and directive.

Rule 18 does not apply when rule 10 contradicts it, so the sailing vessel is given no rights in a TSS. Whereas rule 10 does not over-ride rule 15, so pdv 's still have some crossing rights.

The whole point of my original post was trying to explain what is meant by "impeding" whether its says "shall not" or "avoid" is imaterial and consequently the simile I used was with the Emergency Vehicle. Impeding does not confer any special priviliges on any vessel.

Rule 18 starts off with "Except where rules 9, 10 and 13 otherwise require...." This is because this confusing word "impeding" occurs in Rules 9 and 10 and Rule 13 states that "any vessel overtaking any other SHALL keep out of the way" - therefore a sailing vessel overtaking a PDV is obliged to keep out of the way.

Rule 10 starts off with the statement that just because a vessel is in a TSS it does not relieve her of any other obligation under any other Rule - therefore Rule 18 (power gives way to sail) is still in force and applies. The bone of contention is that a Sailing Vessel should not impede a PDV, but if it does, the PDV remains the give way vessel.

Your contention therefore that because Rule 15 only applies between PDV's gives a sailing vessel less "rights" is therefore incorrect. PDV's are still the "Give Way" vessel if they come accross Sailing or Fishing Vessels, its just that these vessels should not impede their passage in accordance with Rule 8(f).

Please, I am not trying to get into an argument, but I was genuinely trying to get across in (what I thought was) an understandable format just what "Shall Not" or "Avoiding" impeding actually implies. Many people take the phrase "shall Not" or "Avoid" impeding as being the same as "Shall keep out of the way of" which is what it does NOT mean. It only means that you should try to avoid hindering their passage (as you would try to avoid hindering the passage of an Emergency Vehicle by letting it through even though you don't have to "keep out of their way" as per the Highway Code).

With regard to your query about case studies - try Capt Cockcroft. Most websites are not that helpfull with regard to orals questions.

Happy sailing

 

[bromleybysea]

Not impeding means not getting in the way of, causing to be slowed down or otherwise delaying. I can't see how you can contort the english to make language 'not impeding' mean 'asking' anything. It means you are obliged to let them pass not slowed down or seriously inconvenienced by your presence" This is the essence of it, it seems to me that the phrase "shall not impede the safe passage" does allow for a sailing yacht crossing the TSS to expect a PDV navigating in the TSS to alter providing that it does not endanger or seriously inconveniance the PDV. This is what I was taught on my YM many years ago. Of course "might is right" and anyone not taking avoiding action in a timely fashion is breaking the rules and putting themselves and their crew in danger. I also think that the point about crews of sailing vesssels not being in a particularly good position to assess this is well made. However, if the intention of the rules were to mandate sailing vessels to give way in all circumstances to PDVs in the TSS, why not simply say that they should give way? It seems to me that the rule is open to different interpretation which is clearly unsatisfactory. Interesting and important discussion.

 

[Sailfree]

Lets make it simple.

Not impeding a power vessel in a TSS if less than <20m means it is the implied stand on vessel.

If latter due to a miscalculation a collision situation exists both have an obligation to avoid it.

I think the more wordage used the more open to interpretation it becomes.

 

[lw395]

Yes I too find the interpretation a bit difficult in places. At least in the racing rules you can get protested and that's your discard in the series!
It also seems to me that most of the channel is a 'virtual' TSS, since the ships generally are in lanes (approaching or having come from TSS's) and expect the yachts to give way.
I suppose that unlike the racing rules, they never get to re-write the whole book, the colregs have evolved and been added to by committees.
How far is 'practicable'?

 

[wotayottie]

You are oversimnplifying. Like the above poster I was taught that the PDV in the TSS was expected to adjust course to avoid the sailing vessel which was crossing. Impeding means more than requiring a minor course alteration.

The traffic example used is a poor one because roads are clearly defined and much narrower relative to the things using them. Being anywhere on his road almost impedes the plod car. You would have to try really hard to impede a PDV whilst crossing a traffic scheme but it would be a different matter in a harbour entrance.

But all these are opinions only. What impeding means will be decided by the courts if you ever appear there, and neither logic nor normal useage will necessarily prevail.

 

[lw395]

But all these are opinions only. What impeding means will be decided by the courts if you ever appear there, and neither logic nor normal useage will necessarily prevail.

That's my view too. You need some kind of case law or interpretation because the terms are not well defined. I expect the court would start with your proof of being 'obliged' to cross the TSS in the first place.

 

[calamitys38]

OK guys - you win. Yachts have no rights at sea - all PDV's are barstards getting in your inalienable right to cross the channel wherever you want to.

I suggest you read the post on page 1 with an open mind and try a "tad" harder to understand the simile, rather than pointlessly go on about how narrow roads are or the fact that you are there already impedes the Emergency Vehicle - which is trite to say the least. Of course roads and "the sea lanes" are different - it is the simile which is being made that explaines what "impeding" is - not the fact that it is a traffic junction or a police car

My original post was an honest attempt to dispell various myths surrounding the word "impede". The interpretation I gave was one as explained to be by an MCA examiner and is consequently their interpreation (not the RYA's, but a slightly more professional body who actually regulate Certificates of Competency that are internationally recognised). It was so simple and made such perfect sense that my 16 year old students can easily understand what the difference is beween "Shall keep out of the way" and "Shall avoid impeding" and consequently who ultimately is the "Give Way" vessel.

But I may as well have saved the time and energy - some people just can't be bothered to try and understand and get over their Power and Sail paranoia.

Oh and if your cared to to a bit of background reading, you will find many examples (case studies if you will) on the MAIB website and the Safety Digests that are published there. And yes - a nerve has finally been touched. Been there, seen it, done it and ultimately had kittens by sailing vessels blythly thinking they own the world as they have sailed into my path saying "My 5 day RYA course told me that Power gives way to sail - don't you know" over the VHF to me as I have trundled along in a 250 000 000 DWT supertanker. Tell them they should not be impeding my passage and I am greeted with silence as they don't understand what this means.

Hey - ho - maybe I will just run over the next one - at least I won't feel the bump!!!!