I'm thinking of buying a catamaran??

[Daydream believer]

When I was in Dieppe last month a cat approx 45 ft long turned up, occupying a double berth between 2 finger pontoons. I could not help thinking that it just looked big & ugly. The way it was berthed suggested that those aboard were not as proficient as many of the Dutch & Norwegian sailors that were there. The whole thing reeked of a caravan weekend holiday.

 

[Tranona]

How terrible. Were they required to go about with sacks over their heads in shame?

 

[cherod]

Are you at liberty to disclose what your budget will be for purchasing a cat?
Could it stretch to building a new boat to your specifications?

Like @Chiara’s slave above, I have a soft spot for Richard Woods designs - Sailing Catamarans - Home

And Dazcats - Dazcat Catamaran Range - The Multihull Centre The Multihull Centre

Oh, and I must admit to liking the older Outremers.... this one looks nice (I have no connection to her) - 2000 Outremer 50L Multi-Hull for sale - YachtWorld

John Shuttleworth and Chris White designs are mentioned in this thread in the Liveaboard Forum -
Anyone have opinions on Shuttleworth -vs Chris White catamarans?

At last some sense

 

[capnsensible]

At last some sense

Which one have you got?

 

[goeasy123]

What do we think?

 

[Daydream believer]

How terrible. Were they required to go about with sacks over their heads in shame?

Now you mention it, they may have already have been wearing them

 

[Tranona]

As you are an Essex boy (like me) surely you carry a portable set of stocks so that you can make an example of people like that.

 

[Trident]

I have seen the HH cats up close. Also spoke to the yard who were fixing stuff. They are not trouble free. They have some silly design features for cruising. The rudders are the deeper than the hull. First thing to touch in a grounding unless the boards are down. They are super skinny rudders and very vulnerable. Carbon hulls are very noisy down below.
The catch 22 with cats is to keep them light so they perfrom you can't add lots of sound insulation. Without the sound insulation it's like being inside a drum. Watch some of the Imoca sailing in carbon monohulls. An extreme example but not dissimilar to a carbon cat.
A guy I met had sailed a Gunboat across the Atlantic on a delivery trip. He said how incredibly noisy those boats were. All creaks and groans as the carbon drum slams on the water.
If I was looking a catamaran and had a large budget, the one for me would be a Balance. Built in South Africa. The right spec for performance and comfort but not cheap. A friend did some consultancy for them. He also built the first ever Gunboats in his yard in Port Elisabeth in SA. He has since built several big cats and a couple of all carbon cats. He told me that for cruising, the carbon aspect is unnecessary and undesirable. Rich people just like to say they have a carbon catamaran.

HH have a GRP cruise model ...

Carbon is quite faddy - talking to Darren Newton at Dazcats who built theRapier 550 for Broadblue they looked at using carbon for that but the scantlings demanded a thickness for RCD A that was more than strong enough in GRP and vinyl ester so doing carbon would not have saved weight at all and would have cost much more so they used gRP

 

[geem]

HH have a GRP cruise model ...

Never seen that one. Only the carbon versions

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Mumby Cats are worth a look. Made for sailors rather than charterers if you are disappointed with the production brands. There are not many of them though in comparison.

Saw one yesterday in the west Solent. Nice looking boat. It ticked all my speed and seakeeping boxes. Not too much top hamper, smooth lines, dagger boards, nothing alarmingly big in the rig.

 

[Trident]

Never seen that one. Only the carbon versions

I think it only came out last year - its on the 42 model. The truth is of course that in reality vinyester vac moulded hulls are so thin and strong now that there is little point in carbon other than as a marketing tool for cruising boats.

 

[geem]

I think it only came out last year - its on the 42 model. The truth is of course that in reality vinyester vac moulded hulls are so thin and strong now that there is little point in carbon other than as a marketing tool for cruising boats.

I said similar at the bottom of post 39

 

[Solent Cruiser]

We're thinking of buying a cat. We're currently semi-liveaboards on a Najad 400. We think a cat might be more comfortable for longer spells aboard. We've sailed on Fontaine Pagiot's a Lagoons and were very dissapointed. What used cat should we consider and why?

Ignoring the discussion about the problems with various new(ish) designs and builders, sailing performance etc etc, my input (as a cruising catamaran liveaboard, in Europe) would be: (1) There's been a huge influx of short in the sailing-tooth, starry-eyed, very wealthy newbies, who all buy 40ft plus huge catamarans, so in five or so years the secondhand market will become good for a buyer IMO ie the opposite of what it is now (2) Because of the above exponential growth, and lack of positive input/ pressure towards marina operators from the builders and various other multihull-interested parties ( including sailing magazines), the cost and availability of berthing is horrendous now. Marina owners are totally, and unfairly, milking the market, automatically charging at least 50 percent and some another 100 percent, totally irrespective of your beam - ours is only 5.3m, barely 35cm larger than a similar length motorboat, but the comparable cost compared to owning a mono very significant. And this is if you can get a berth in the first place - hard for the modern cat where the beams are 7m and more. If going to the Caribbean, where there are lots of anchorages, this may not be such an issue for a time, but I can assure you it will become a financial and irritating thing for you in time, because it is often unfair policy, badly applied. (3) Modern monos exist that have huge beams and walk though living spaces. With these yet won't be charged the earth for storage/ moorong, and they cost significantly less to buy and maintain too. Eg look at a Moody DS, maybe, and others like it.

 

[RunAgroundHard]

Ignoring the discussion about the problems with various new(ish) designs and builders, sailing performance etc etc, my input (as a cruising catamaran liveaboard, in Europe) would be: (1) There's been a huge influx of short in the sailing-tooth, starry-eyed, very wealthy newbies, who all buy 40ft plus huge catamarans, so in five or so years the secondhand market will become good for a buyer IMO ie the opposite of what it is now (2) Because of the above exponential growth, and lack of positive input/ pressure towards marina operators from the builders and various other multihull-interested parties ( including sailing magazines), the cost and availability of berthing is horrendous now. Marina owners are totally, and unfairly, milking the market, automatically charging at least 50 percent and some another 100 percent, totally irrespective of your beam - ours is only 5.3m, barely 35cm larger than a similar length motorboat, but the comparable cost compared to owning a mono very significant. And this is if you can get a berth in the first place - hard for the modern cat where the beams are 7m and more. If going to the Caribbean, where there are lots of anchorages, this may not be such an issue for a time, but I can assure you it will become a financial and irritating thing for you in time, because it is often unfair policy, badly applied. (3) Modern monos exist that have huge beams and walk though living spaces. With these yet won't be charged the earth for storage/ moorong, and they cost significantly less to buy and maintain too. Eg look at a Moody DS, maybe, and others like it.

(1) A lot of assumptions in there about the market, the post boomer generation are reaping the rewards now, many from parents houses, many with good jobs, many with good pensions and early retirement options, many with good SME businesses selling on et cetera. Why would they regret buying a catamaran if they decided they want one? Equally, why would they regret buying a +40' monohull? These people have the full range of analytical skills as earlier generations and make decisions that suit them, they also have access to more choice.
(2) Marinas are basically renting space, why should they rent more space at the same price as their economic model norm? That would be stupid and rocking up in 40' cat at twice the width of a 40' mono and expecting to pay the same, is wrong.
(3) Where I sail, marinas have not adapted space between finger pontoons for modern monohulls. The result is that the wide steered boats are just closer together in the usual two berth space. Perhaps that is just luck, I own a 70's 40'er and berth next to a smaller 70s 35'er. The space between us is huge, but compared to the some of the berths you could hardly fit a fag paper between them. I do agree that the modern mono wins hands down on numbers and likely future sales v catamarans, but I don't think cats will stop selling, they have an appeal for social living space that even the monos cant beat. Guests in the huge cabin in the port hull say, can fart away all night without the owner hearing in a starboard hull. In a mono, the volume is obvious.

You could be right of course, but the future is difficult to predict. If the OP wants a cat for the reasons given, more comfort for longer time living onboard, then I think a cat would be deliver that need. No idea which one though.

 

[goeasy123]

You could be right of course, but the future is difficult to predict. If the OP wants a cat for the reasons given, more comfort for longer time living onboard, then I think a cat would be deliver that need. No idea which one though.

Which one is a conundrum. I watched the Youtube O'Kelly's at a catamaboatshow and I believe there's a cat only show at Grand Motte. I sense a significant change in the market with folks lookng for quality 'apartments-on-the-water'. However, to me they offer the eye. They all look like there were made in the Lego factory and for some reason the designers give up completely when they get within few feet of the transom.

(1) A lot of assumptions in there about the market, the post boomer generation are reaping the rewards now, many from parents houses, many with good jobs, many with good pensions and early retirement options, many with good SME businesses selling on et cetera. Why would they regret buying a catamaran if they decided they want one? Equally, why would they regret buying a +40' monohull? These people have the full range of analytical skills as earlier generations and make decisions that suit them, they also have access to more choice.

This chimes. For long in the tooth sailors there was a necessary apprenticeship to service (in the olden days), but learning to sail safely is not that hard, it's quick with better support networks and safety equipment.

On marinas. This is not an issue. The cats coming on the market now are self sufficient. They don't need marinas during their cruising season.

 

[Solent Cruiser]

.

(1) A lot of assumptions in there about the market, the post boomer generation are reaping the rewards now, many from parents houses, many with good jobs, many with good pensions and early retirement options, many with good SME businesses selling on et cetera. Why would they regret buying a catamaran if they decided they want one? Equally, why would they regret buying a +40' monohull? These people have the full range of analytical skills as earlier generations and make decisions that suit them, they also have access to more choice.
(2) Marinas are basically renting space, why should they rent more space at the same price as their economic model norm? That would be stupid and rocking up in 40' cat at twice the width of a 40' mono and expecting to pay the same, is wrong.
(3) Where I sail, marinas have not adapted space between finger pontoons for modern monohulls. The result is that the wide steered boats are just closer together in the usual two berth space. Perhaps that is just luck, I own a 70's 40'er and berth next to a smaller 70s 35'er. The space between us is huge, but compared to the some of the berths you could hardly fit a fag paper between them. I do agree that the modern mono wins hands down on numbers and likely future sales v catamarans, but I don't think cats will stop selling, they have an appeal for social living space that even the monos cant beat. Guests in the huge cabin in the port hull say, can fart away all night without the owner hearing in a starboard hull. In a mono, the volume is obvious.

You could be right of course, but the future is difficult to predict. If the OP wants a cat for the reasons given, more comfort for longer time living onboard, then I think a cat would be deliver that need. No idea which one though.

Hi. This thread is a bit like the topic of anchor preference, if you understand my meaning! Isn't it fun!?

My intention was and is just to aid the the OP and, more often than not, the many more 'interested others' in some of the realities often not sufficiently forthcoming.

To answer your points, but I won't number them....

Literally everything, of course, has assumptions and faith, but it is the awareness and transparency of them, the foundation of what they are based upon, and their probability of occurrence, that matters. Good comprehension and critical analysis requires one to know and take onboard this when reading anything: it would be irritating to list all assumptions our 'models' were based upon at the start of every response, wouldn't it? Forums don't work like scientific papers or policy proposals. Alas, too, many persons do lack moderate or even good critical thinking skills; they are far from universally at a high level. In brief, in terms of this post, I think my hinterland is real and genuine. On this, I'm living it. I'm not wealthy. Been sailing for over 40 years. No house(s!), no cars, no land shit: just our multi for home and cruising. Full time. Been in 30 places in just the last two years, mostly - but not always - marinas.....tis the nature of W. Europe. So I've a damn good feel for reality as oppose to singularly glossed, unreported, even unreal and ill-informed magazines and YTube views and assumptions, although, of course I appreciate they are not all wrong.

Why would they regret you ask? Some will, some won't. But long term, as I made clear, unless you are monied, it is the much higher costs that ARE significant...two engines, bigger systems, 4 toilets, blah...it's not rocket science on the £¥€ front. And then there's mooring .... the point (later).

They have access to more choice you say: no one arguing with you here; exactly - primarily as many more now have earlier, greater disposable income and flexibility (in work too). No surprises there. I've nothing one way or another about this, so no sure why it's raised TBH.

On marina charging...exactly, again. What were you saying about equality of analysis skill? If 'space occupied' is one of the key variables (it definitively IS), then marinas should charge for beam, irrespective of the number of hulls (a total irrelevancy if you actually use beam): and most don't. In the marina managers' easy-life-please attitudes, trying to explain it to them is like saying why don't you just have the same fee for all monos LOA to point Xm, then just charge 50pc or 100pc on top for all above that Xm mark...so much easier? Duh! "Well, that is what you do with beam" (including monos) is the retort to those in a position capable of rectifying policy- wrongs. Alas, though, not all (I'm being very polite here) have the same comprehension skills, nor personal propensity to modify practices, or to be fairly client centric, or to reflect changing boat designs, and other factors (eg 'don't change what keeps things as they are'; 'I'm not bothered about fairness, proportionality nor equality'; 'keep it nice and easy for me'; 'the wealthy pay, whatever', so we don't care'..blah blah). It's wrong and it's unfair, as boats vary in beam massively today from mono thru multi. The latter is not an opinion, it is a fact.

The bottom line is: wait till you sit next to a same LOA modern mono, with 4.4M beam or such like, beam next to them in the same berth cut out, each with your own finger, you not blocking any access, etc etc, and you find you pay £2.5K pa for the same berth. Ditto when sat on a hammerhead ... go ask! I want everyone not to be accepting or content about this and change the unfairness.

However.....let us not get distracted and don't lose sight of the key point for the OP that I believe I was making. That is, in a great many (perhaps majority?) of major locations, multi marina berths are difficult to get and/or very expensive (unfairly by definition, on the aforementioned explanation of the iniquitous charging policies of not using beam, other than in a nominal sense of 'you have two hulls'). And they are becoming more so each year. Again, this evidentially-based over 30 ports just this last 18 months, and thus factually correct, as I hope I made clear. It is of huge relevance for the OP and others depending on variables like if "real" ££ is an issue/ the long term view Vs the trendy two year sabbatical/ location (s) of choice, etc, and so on. If in doubt, just ask 'ordinary' people, doing real cruising, year in year out, about the effort required and losses accepted when trying to get a winter/autumn (whatever) berth each and every single year. The situation - the curve on the line so to speak- is a significantly declining one in terms of positives!

Your last point that multis won't stop selling: totally agreed and didn't say they would. But then again, nor did cigarettes, nor vapes ...not a fair analogy, I know, excuse me, but it makes my point about often there are deficiencies in analytical and critical thinking (perhaps, I perceive, leaning somewhat against what you believe, or not, it doesn't matter really), as THE big decisions are more often than not swayed, if not LED, by emotional responses, stirred by herd behaviour and mentality ( hello, YTube)

So, you won't get a stronger advocate for multis than I, sir, if that was the debate. But that's not the point of my reply for the OP and others ...like I say, it's like anchors: there are literally three or four, 95pc defacto correct, answers to 'which anchor' but you still get fools with the wrong ones, or (worse) new million £$ boats ( including most multis) with the wrong kit on the roller! Hence the requirement to say something else.

If it wasn't already clear, my answers are totally contextually bound. And, on this basis, I am trying to show those interested that there are modern deck-like, open living monos that are, maybe, real, and perhaps better valued, alternatives (for a couple and occasional guests)....especially where marinas are concerned (amongst other things too). Just check it out. It's not as black and white as portrayed by some. Then buy your catamaran!

My best advice on the latter, if you are not multi or really mono experienced either in terms of variety of craft, is get what our US friends call a buyers broker. I mean someone who honestly knows their stuff and shares it, gets the local market, understands what to look for re your needs not wants, and who is genuinely unbiased....good luck...a compromise, as always.

Phew. Bye bye, and fair winds if you are water bound.

 

[Wansworth]

There's a big Wharram comes here generally each year. Must be 60ft or more and stays for a few weeks. Often wondered if it belongs to some weird aqua cult and they go offshore and get the women to dress as mermaids....or something. Must stop doing that.

Something about a wharram that makes women take their cloths off…….and much cheaper than a Lagoon