If I were an RNLI donor I would not be happy.

FishyInverness said:
Not Wholly at cross purposes.

Yes, that is the argument being presented (shallow water capability in an all-weather boat being a justified expense). Your counter argument then tends to be that the French use a RIB for shallow water, the "opposition" counter-argument then presents that a RIB is not an All-Weather boat and you have then made the point (which I believe to be incorrect and is what i'm getting at) that the Shannon is a shallow water boat, and the impression you are giving is that it is solely a shallow water boat. I am going to quote one of your responses directly now, and I can't see how your response is stating anything but "The RNLI and posters on here claim this to be a shallow water boat"



The fact does remain that the Shannon is an expensive boat - but it does both the job of the French RIBS which you are using as the solution to shallow water and Offshore All-Weather Boats, it is truly dual purpose where the French would need to use two boats to achieve the same purpose (Shallow water launching of an All Weather rescue capability) - The French don't seem to have a boat which can do both jobs to the best performance, and so the cost, it would appear, is justified.

Will you PLEASE clarify that you admit the Shannon is a dual purpose boat, and not designed solely for shallow water rescue - as this has been your apparent position so far? I did ask you to do that previously and you said I was talking at cross purposes without answering the question...
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We could talk around this subject for ages and frankly I'm spending too much time on it already. In the final diagnosis are the French unnecessarily losing lives because they don't have a Shannon? Or are they just getting on with the tools in hand and doing a great job with them?

What I find incredible on the RNLI appeal site is that they say that so far they have only raised half of the money necessary to build the two Shannons and their carriages. What are they doing with their funds if it's not to build boats? This from an organisation which has earned in "profits" double the amount that they have spent in boats over the last 6 years and who also spend as much on staff pensions as they do on boats.

Sorry but I'm happy with the French model.

I have never denied that the Shannon is a dual purpose boat : all weather boat to be compared with a French all weather boat and a shallow water boat where apparently the French have a different solution.

It's up to the RNLI members to know whether or not it's better to pay £2.5m for a boat and its launching system, as long as they know what the alternatives are. It's their money.

I am now bowing out of this thread as I think I have said everything that I believed needed saying - unless of course somebody deliberately misrepresents me.
 
King Penguin said:
Dear Sybarite,

I think you've established, without any question of doubt, that 'if you were an RNLI donor you wouldn't be happy'...............therefore, as you are not a donor you must be 'happy', esp. as you neither sail in areas covered by the RNLI or are likely to need their fabulous services.

So what is the point of carrying on with your 'campaign' apart from upsetting people who are happy donating to the RNLI and think the service they provide to be first class.
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I have been a donor in the past and I now donate to the local service. I do sometimes sail in areas covered by the RNLI but I would hazard a guess that there are more British yachtsmen in areas covered by the SNSM than the contrary. If you are happy that 6% of the RNLI's funding goes on boats and that the majority of crews are unpaid well then so be it.

I'm still waiting for your response on the other matter I raised with you.
 
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Keen_Ed said:
Also, the sort of places where they use a carriage launched boat tend to be drying harbours. So actually, they're saving lots and lots of money, because the only other way to have a lifeboat available at all states of tide is to have a long and massively expensive pier with a ramp launched boat at the end of it - as they do at Bembridge, for instance.
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Or take a large RIB on a tractor and trailor to the water's edge.
 
Which is of no use in an AWB situation.....Now you're arguing at cross purposes!

Sybarite, I really think you should do as you said previously and bow out. At first I felt you had some credibility, and I suspect a lot of others without a positively-biased opinion about the RNLI felt the same - unfortunately I don't now feel the same given some of your posts and decisions not to consider or even acknowledge the validity of other facts or points of view, and again, I don't think i'm alone and the initial intention of the thread (to educate and encourage discussion that there might be lessons to be learned) has become null.
 
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Sybarite said:
If you are happy that 6% of the RNLI's funding goes on boats and that the majority of crews are unpaid well then so be it.
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err, 6% capital investment in boats, yes.....but that is very different to their running costs (not included). A rather naive or selective appreciation of financial information there, I think.

Sybarite said:
I have been a donor in the past.....
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I wonder how much it was.........I'm sure many forum members here would happily contribute to a 'whip round' to repay it if it shut you up on this subject!

Sybarite said:
I'm still waiting for your response on the other matter I raised with you.
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As previously stated I have accused you of nothing, just merely commented on your vast and wide-ranging post history. You know what you posted and you don't need me to go through it for you.......

That's it for me............
 
Sybarite said:
Or take a large RIB on a tractor and trailor to the water's edge.
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The RNLI has loads of large RIBS launched by tractor.

However to provide an all weather lifeboat on parts of the coast where there is no alternative, they have for hundreds of years, launched large boats from the beach. The Shannon is the latest boat with this capability and will supplement all the RIBS and their tractors.

I don't know the coastline of France with any intimacy, but if the SNSM can provide adequate cover without having to have a carriage launched capability, then that's great for them. Launching huge boats in the surf is a high risk, cumbersome operation that is only contemplated when there is no alternative. Having a boat afloat is by far the preferred option, followed by slipway launch a distant second and if absolutely no alternative can be found, then a carriage launched AWLB is reluctantly considered.

However there are large stretches of the UK coastline where this is still the only viable option. Helicopters and large RIBS are invaluable, but ultimately having an all weather boat available around the coast is still considered to be a critical asset. Once this reality is accepted, then finding a boat for this mission is not easy. The tradition solution of props in tunnels meant the aft planing surface was severely compromised and restricted the performance for the Mersey AWLB. The use of jets was seen to be the solution to that, but on its own did not provide all the answers. The boats themselves have to be incredibly rugged to survive the slamming and smashing during the launch and recovery operation. No one in their right mind would launch a 15 ton boat off the beach in any sort of waves. It's outrageous, but when there's no alternative way of putting an all weather, 27 knot, self righting boat to sea, it has to be done.

Eight designs were considered as part of this FCB project, including all commercially available boats that might have been suitable from the UK, USCG, France and Ireland. They were all found to have short comings (including excessive spray hampering the search mission at speed) and none were structurally suitable for beach launch and recovery. So going for the expense of an in house design and engineered solution was reluctantly undertaken.

Of course there was another solution; and that was to tell long stretches of the UK coastline that beach launched boats were being withdrawn as they're too expensive. That of course is an option but one that would fundamentally alter the mission of the RNLI and could only be done by the agreement of everyone affected by such a decision (crews, sailors, fishermen, public, etc).

Luckily the public support the RNLI to a level where such a withdrawal of service doesn't have to be contemplated, but banging on about how it could be done on the cheap, using for an example an organisation which doesn't have the same capability is just wrong.

There are lots of areas of operation where the RNLI could be open to justifiable criticism. But to do so effectively you have to have enough knowledge to at least make a case with a shred of credibility.
 
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King Penguin said:
err, 6% capital investment in boats, yes.....but that is very different to their running costs (not included). A rather naive or selective appreciation of financial information there, I think.


I wonder how much it was.........I'm sure many forum members here would happily contribute to a 'whip round' to repay it if it shut you up on this subject!



As previously stated I have accused you of nothing, just merely commented on your vast and wide-ranging post history. You know what you posted and you don't need me to go through it for you.......

That's it for me............
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So, you don't have the courage of your convictions. I thought not. And yes the information was selective and it would make me reflect if I were a contributor to the organisation.

Crews free, boats 6% of income that leaves a lot over for the rest. Here's another fact : the salary budget is over 9 times what is spent on acquiring boats (that is boats alone, not launching systems or stations).
 
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Sybarite said:
yes the information was selective and it would make me reflect if I were a contributor to the organisation.
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Well done, an admission you were 'information' selective............but, Syrabite, you are not a contributor (donor) and therefore you have no need to reflect............


maxi77 said:
I give up Sybarite is clearly unwilling to address the facts and deal with the discussion in a sensible manner. I'm out
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+ 1
 
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Sybarite said:
..
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RNLI 236 Lifeboat Stations
SNSM 185 Lifeboat Stations

SNSM 221 stations of which 36 are seasonal

RNLI 164 All Weather Lifeboats
SNSM 40 All Weather Lifeboats

Perhaps now a reality check concerning the boats (and it's really worth looking at the cost of each):

Who cares about the cost? (Well probably the French do because they're short of funds ... OK, sorry that's a low blow but in this context cost is the very least important factor)

http://www.snsm.org/presentation-de-la-flotte

The SNSM all weather boats are the 17m60 and the 15m50 boats which are being replaced by the new 17m80 boat. The Tamar is two thirds more expensive than this and it takes 2500 hp to drive it at the same speed:25 knts as the 1300 hp of the French boat - which consequently has a much greater range.

OK, lets play Lifeboat Top Trumps ...

No actually, lets not partially cos I just can't be arsed and partially because there isn't much technical information available on the new French boat.

RNLI 72 offshore RIBS capable up to F7
SNSM 89 offshore RIBS (25 rated to F8, 64 to F7)

Would you describe the Vedette Classe 1, a 46' self righting unsinkable 25knt Pantocarene hulled boat, as an offshore RIB? Wow! Sounds like all weather to me even though that's not its official title. It is certainly NOT a RIB.

Apologies, that was an editing error. It isn't, as you point out, a RIB. However, it is not an All Weather Lifeboat either and the SNSM do not claim that it is one. It is though larger and more capable than the Atlantic 85

What about the other offshore boats - which aren't RIBs? Vedette Classe 2-1 (35') and Classe 2-2 (30'), Vedette Classe 2 NG (39' - new generation), Vedette légère (30') ? Where do they figure in your table?

As the French equivlaent to the Atlantic 85. They are rated to operate in similar conditions and have roughly similar capabilities

As, IIRC, Chanelyacht mentioned hundreds of posts ago this is an area where you actually COULD make a valid point. Whilst the full monty AWB capability of the French lifeboat fleet is much less than that of the RNLI their solid hulled boats rated to F7/F8 offer some advantages over the Atlantic RIB used in that environment by the RNLI not least an enclosed cabin which offers better crew protection

As I have said before the boats are adapted to expected local conditions. Sometimes mastodonts aren't needed and its preferable to have more smaller ones more widely spread.

That may, indeed, be true. It may, indeed, be the case that the French situation does not require a large All Weather fleet. Or it may in fact be the case that the SNSM cannot afford a large All Weather fleet and has to send its crews out in less capable boats due to cost contraints

The "hourses for courses" argument cuts both ways of course. Whilst the French situation may (if we accept your statement at face value) dictate a fleet of less capable boats, the UK and Ireland situation could be said to dictate a large fleet of All Weather boats

The RNLI operates over four times as many All Weather Lifeboats. SNSM has just 40 capable of launching and operating in any conditions compared to 164 in the RNLI fleet

Do you honestly believe that?

It's not a question of belief. It is a matter of fact. Are you trying to claim that boats that the SNSM does NOT rate as AWBs are, in fact, AWBs?

Note: I dislike the above quoting style and won't do it again!
 
Neeves said:
Being Sydney based this thread makes interesting reading. Some people do not know when they are wll off.

I was invited on board Hoylake's Mersey Class and given a very thorough tour of all the vessel, its carriage and tractor. What struck me about her was that unlike the lifeboat on, say a cruise ship, this vessel was built to what seemed like warship specifications. Everything seemed oversize (except the anchors which looked a bit puny) and chunky. Against that I have been involved in Oz of reviews of fancy motor yachts and the contrast in construction is huge, one contains an enormous amout of metal (steel and alloy, and seat belts for each chair) and the other fibreglass and fancy, plastic, veneered thin ply. Yet the purchase figures for the fancy, up market, and similarly sized toy might not be that dissimilar to the robust Shannon. Frankly I am amazed that the RNLI can build their new vessel, if its built to the same robust standards as the Mersey, for the figures quoted. Which begs the question - to what standards are the French boats built - and this has not been forthcoming. Superficially the French and British lifeboats might be built to meet the same needs - but that does not mean they are built to the same specification and nor that they will last as long. It might be noted that the RNLI's vessels last, for ever - where do the French vessels fit in, how often do they need replacing. It might be that the RNLI could 'save' by buying to a design to the same spec as France, but if they only last 25% as long - where is the saving?

I was told, at the time, the cost of the submersible tractor (but cannot recall with accuracy) but it was not cheap. Frankly if I were a lifeboatman I'd rather take my chances to be launched off a beach in a Force 9 gale in something thats built like a tank, and cost the same as a tank (as in military vehicle), than wonder where the savings had been made to cost 66% less.

And on salaries I'm with Bilbo - to pay the CEO of an organisation involved in such a high risk activity at the monies quoted, you are very lucky!

And yes the RNLI, its vessels, its crews and its ability to raise funds is the envy of the world. We look at the facilities at their HQ with wonder, where else can you have a liferaft tested with a wave machine. (And frankly there would have been more complaints if the new HQ was not archiect designed). No-one ever quotes the French lifeboats organisation as a model to which to compare, or American, or Japanese. The standard is the UK (and Ireland). If anything this suggests they are getting it right.

It is correct to query but not to query with-out all the information.
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reginaldon said:
Sybarite, I think you'll find Viago's post was a tongue in cheek response anticipating a similar post by the defence lobby!
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My apologies to him in that case. It was a moment when I was being gunned at from all sides.

I am truly amazed by the number of people who appear not to be phased by the enormous sums involved. Must all be the hyper rich yachties...!
 
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