If I were an RNLI donor I would not be happy.

Camelia said:
I wonder how much it would cost to get rescued if neither organisation existed?

List of Charges

Towing
10 miles = 2,000
20 miles = 5,000

Extra charges
Call out in a Force 6 + 3,000
Call out in a Force 8 + 7,000

Recovery of people
Use of Lifeboat 5,000 per person rescued
Use of Helicopter 15,000 per hour

(insert £ or € depending what side of the Channel you are)

This all sounds a very academic exercise in navel gazing; as individuals, or even a tiny group, we will not be able to make a change in the management or financial structure of the RNLI.
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towing and rescue charge likely to be zero if 91% of the good people using this forum and contributing to this thread are in the vicinity.
according to the concurrent poll.
 
Sybarite said:
Apparently you are not reading my posts. #486
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I did, is a RIB which you suggest is the French substitute for carriage launch a suitable vessel for all weather rescues in the North Sea.

Apparently you are avoiding the question.

Also I do not see in post 486 a contradiction the suggestion that most actuall finacial supporters of the RNLI, at least here, are reasonably happy with the RNLI, or did I miss something in that rather busy post
 
ParaHandy said:
This just isn't true and I think you know it. The free reserves are less than £100m. They bearly cover a years running. The figure you quote includes such items as the launch houses etc, none of which, whilst an asset, generates cash to cover the costs of a launch.

Just out of interest, the RNLI achieve a 10 minute launch on average and reach 93% of all casualties within 10miles. We will have to agree to differ over the flimsy French boats.
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Endowment reserves : £9.8m cannot touch because it is held to generate operating income.
Restricted reserves £262.8m (of which fixed asserts 179.2 ; Other restricted assets, accrued legacy reserves) This is money which must be spent in conformity with donors' instructions : which probably covers a large part of the RNLI's activity: boat purchases amongst others.
Designated reserves : £216.4m (of which fixed assets 140.5 and planned capital expenditure 75.9) This is a discretionary reserve - at the discretion of the Trustees and should be considered as a statement of intent. However nothing AFAIK prevents them from changing their minds and rendering them free again.
Net free reserves £90.1m having taken account of an unfunded pension provision of £33.4m on the total of £252.5m...!!

Their hands are not nearly as tied as you would suggest.

PS I would like to correct an error I made. I noted that there were 1691 employees end 2011 at the RNLI. In fact this should read 1619. Sorry, it was an inversion of figures.
 
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maxi77 said:
I did, is a RIB which you suggest is the French substitute for carriage launch a suitable vessel for all weather rescues in the North Sea.

Apparently you are avoiding the question.

Also I do not see in post 486 a contradiction the suggestion that most actuall finacial supporters of the RNLI, at least here, are reasonably happy with the RNLI, or did I miss something in that rather busy post
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Maybe maybe not but the SNSM doesn't operate in the N. Sea. What you haven't answered is how long does it take the Shannon on its carriage to cover the 1 mile to the water's edge? It looked pretty slow to me. If I were foundering on an offshore sandbank I wouldn't turn my nose up at a large RIB that could get there (apparently - and let me stress that) in a fraction of the time.

As for your second point : I dispute the notion "most". I would say "some".
 
Sybarite said:
Maybe maybe not but the SNSM doesn't operate in the N. Sea. What you haven't answered is how long does it take the Shannon on its carriage to cover the 1 mile to the water's edge? It looked pretty slow to me. If I were foundering on an offshore sandbank I wouldn't turn my nose up at a large RIB that could get there (apparently - and let me stress that) in a fraction of the time.

As for your second point : I dispute the notion "most". I would say "some".
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Um, I'll counter that with another (obvious) question - how long does it take the SNSM's rib to cover the same mile?

What happens if it isn't a leisure boat with 2 crew that's on the sandbank but a fishing boat with a crew of 8?
 
mikefleetwood said:
Um, I'll counter that with another (obvious) question - how long does it take the SNSM's rib to cover the same mile?
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It's pulled behind an ordinary farmyard type tractor. Not a caterpillar.

mikefleetwood said:
What happens if it isn't a leisure boat with 2 crew that's on the sandbank but a fishing boat with a crew of 8?
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If you compare it with the same sized RNLI equivalent there is a survivor capacity of 20.
 
Sybarite said:
Maybe maybe not but the SNSM doesn't operate in the N. Sea. What you haven't answered is how long does it take the Shannon on its carriage to cover the 1 mile to the water's edge? It looked pretty slow to me. If I were foundering on an offshore sandbank I wouldn't turn my nose up at a large RIB that could get there (apparently - and let me stress that) in a fraction of the time.

As for your second point : I dispute the notion "most". I would say "some".
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So the RNLI should ignore the North Sea, come on I would have thought you could do better than that. However fast or slow the lauch system is it is a lot faster than the tide and the SNSM does have tide bound all weather boats in some harbours, I have seen them.

As others have agreed the RIB is not suitable for many casualties and I would have thought that even you would have accepted a RIB is not a fair substitute for an all weather boat, if not why does the SNSM save a lot of money by having an all RIB fleet. Many carriage launch stations do actually have co-located RIBs to cover the very circumstance you mention, also carriage launched.

I must admit that I do fail to see why you seem to insist that carriage lauched all weather bots are not required and can be easily replaced by tide bound coverted pilot boats.
 
Sybarite said:
It's pulled behind an ordinary farmyard type tractor. Not a caterpillar.



If you compare it with the same sized RNLI equivalent there is a survivor capacity of 20.
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So broadly similar on both counts, then (unless of course you want to tow the casualty).

I have no idea what speed the RNLI caterpillar is capable of, but I do know a tractor pulling a heavy trailer over a soft, rough beach won't be particularly fast either.
 
Rigger Mortice said:
I don't think that is quite right.
You're correct about the "free" reserves but the balance of the reserves is still money, some of which is committed because of the way it was donated (legacies etc) and some being money which has been put to one side for future capital expenditure .....boats and launch houses. It's still money though, it's not yet assets in the form of buildings etc.
Or maybe I've missunderstood your comment?
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Any specific donation is an instruction from the donor or, more normally, the Executors to the RNLI. If you pay a deposit on a boat, say, that money goes into an escrow account. Same applies here. The other point you make is does the RNLI have a pot of money for future capex? I don't see any unallocated sums of money; it would be surprising if there were. I would presume that the RNLI will have a pretty constant stream of cash going out all the time to committed expenditure in the course of construction.

The point I wish to make again is that the OP's assertion that the RNLI has £570m of cash available is utter nonsense.
 
Rigger Mortice said:
Agreed. :)

I just cannot understand why some boaters seem to so so keen to discredit the RNLI. I simply cannot understand it.
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They do not like being told to put a lifjacket on. Mind you the SNSM have a similar campaign.

In reality it is a bit like asking why people support Ed Milliband or Mit Romney, some people just think like that.
 
ParaHandy said:
Any specific donation is an instruction from the donor or, more normally, the Executors to the RNLI. If you pay a deposit on a boat, say, that money goes into an escrow account. Same applies here. The other point you make is does the RNLI have a pot of money for future capex? I don't see any unallocated sums of money; it would be surprising if there were. I would presume that the RNLI will have a pretty constant stream of cash going out all the time to committed expenditure in the course of construction.

The point I wish to make again is that the OP's assertion that the RNLI has £570m of cash available is utter nonsense.
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I never said it was cash. I said it was reserves which correspond to assets less liabilities.

You then have to see which assets may be realized as cash or cash equivalents in the short term.

Obviously you dont want to touch the fixed assets (£320m) or the assets held which correspond to the restricted reserves ie £86m on the total investments held of £252m. This means that you have, out of the £612m total net assets before pension shortfall, £406m which are blocked and £206m in cash or near cash equivalents out of which must be made good the pension shortfall of £33m. ie a potential of £173m. Or , if you trimmed down the paid staff you could perhaps add back an over-subscribed pension fund.

Even if no more money came in, you could fund your present fleet and employees for at least the next three years. Additional fleet could also be provided to the extent that the investment corresponded to the intention of the restricted reserves.

But money is flowing in ... at present.
 
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maxi77 said:
They do not like being told to put a lifjacket on. Mind you the SNSM have a similar campaign.

In reality it is a bit like asking why people support Ed Milliband or Mit Romney, some people just think like that.
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The object of the thread which I have repeated several times is the suggestion that concertation between the services might bring about economies of scale to the advantage of everybody. The SNSM might get better boats (perhaps) and the RNLI might learn something about asset management.
 
maxi77 said:
So the RNLI should ignore the North Sea, come on I would have thought you could do better than that. However fast or slow the lauch system is it is a lot faster than the tide and the SNSM does have tide bound all weather boats in some harbours, I have seen them.

As others have agreed the RIB is not suitable for many casualties and I would have thought that even you would have accepted a RIB is not a fair substitute for an all weather boat, if not why does the SNSM save a lot of money by having an all RIB fleet. Many carriage launch stations do actually have co-located RIBs to cover the very circumstance you mention, also carriage launched.

I must admit that I do fail to see why you seem to insist that carriage lauched all weather bots are not required and can be easily replaced by tide bound coverted pilot boats.
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It's not an either / or situation. The SNSM have a range of AWBs including a 25knt 30' boat which could also (I imagine) be launched like a RIB. And they only cost €100k and so you could have 62 for every Shannon system.

http://www.snsm.org/flotte/vedette-legere
 
Sybarite said:
The object of the thread which I have repeated several times is the suggestion that concertation between the services might bring about economies of scale to the advantage of everybody. The SNSM might get better boats (perhaps) and the RNLI might learn something about asset management.
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Looks to me like the RNLI know quite a lot about asset management. They have currently got boats of the correct design and spec at every site they need them, and they have funds set aside to replace them when they need replacing. Thanks to donations left as part of an estate, sometimes that means the boat is replaced more regularly than otherwise it would be (often they get money for a specific lifeboat, for instance Weymouth I believe have several boats lined up).

Even if you're right (and I, and many others don't think you are) that we should take a close look at how they operate, they are SO far down the list that we'll never get to them. Before looking anywhere near them, Britain needs to look very closely at:
  • MPs
  • Bankers
  • NHS
  • Military spending
  • etc
  • etc
  • etc
  • etc
  • RNLI

As you said above, if no money came in they can fund the fleet for 3 years. That doesn't seem an unnecessary pot of cash to me, it sounds sensible for an organisation with no guaranteed income in a recession. I certainly prefer that to an organisation that may or may not rescue me depending how kind the donors were in a given week.
 
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