If I were an RNLI donor I would not be happy.

[Sybarite]

Yes.

But the two organisations have different operating standards - that's their choice.

To use your motor industry analogy, both Hyundai and BMW make motor cars. Both get people from A to B in safety. Some people choose one, others choose the other.

You mentioned earlier definitions of call outs - e.g. engine failures. When we task a lifeboat, we discuss all the options with the DLA (launch authority) for the boat concerned, and in the case of tow-ins, we will always have used an "any vessels" broadcast first, or explored other options. If we then decide to request (we can only ever request, it's the RNLI's decision to go or not) a lifeboat, then other factors have come into play and it is a genuine requirement.

The comparison between levels of boating in France and the UK is an interesting one - given the population levels are about equal. I've not researched that - but may well do now.

As an aside, although the debate might get a bit heated, it's a good debate to have. You obviously have considerable experience in your field, and any thought out question is always a valid one.

One of the best intelligent (I hope) debates on ybw for a long time.

Thank you for this post; I appreciate it.

Just as an aside - I spoke of looming finance problems. Well I just received this in my mail this afternoon:

http://www.tdg.ch/front/tagesthemen/news/standard/Un-crash-boursier-serait-imminent/story/17175838

An expert predicts an imminent 10% correction in stock market levels. Stateside I have heard of a potential 90% devaluation of the dollar. They need to get cracking on the oil schist situation to stave this off.

 

[glashen]

Thank you for this post; I appreciate it.

Just as an aside - I spoke of looming finance problems. Well I just received this in my mail this afternoon:

http://www.tdg.ch/front/tagesthemen/news/standard/Un-crash-boursier-serait-imminent/story/17175838

Well economic forecasters do often seem to be a short step removed from necromancers of a previous age and frankly at the moment you could probably find one to predict any future you fancied. I agree we are in for a stormy ride, but interestingly having listened to R4s From Our Own Correspondent this morning France seems to be well and truly in the brown stuff. The comparison between Britain and France reminded of 70s comparisons between Britain and Germany but this time it was France painted as the loser and the BBC are hardly renowned for their positive view of the British economy.

 

[chanelyacht]

I'll be interested in cy's response, but I believe the USCG is a branch of the military.

Yes, it is.

The USCG is an interesting one - and I'll put my hand up now, it's not one I know well.

They are an odd mix - some of the rescue boats are incredible, yet others are old - if anyone remembers the RNLI Waveney boats, there are still a few of that design in use in the States. Yet they do have some of the worst seas in the world - and very, very skilled crews.

I don't know enough about their design / procurement process to know costs or true comparisons with the RNLI. They do have an auxilliary service, but those are mainly pleasure boats who report incidents when out and about, they're not dedicated voluntary rescue resources.

They do, however, love jumping from helicopters when there's a perfectly serviceable winch there, which I've never quite understood

 

[Litotes]

Firstly, nobody has attached Sybarite personally as far as I can see. Over 300 posts into the thread and the discussion has not descended into the dreaded "ad hominem" scenario nor, to any significant extent, has the evil "straw man" made an appearance

However, there are a good few examples of those other banes of internet discourse - hyperbole, exaggeration and disingenuity. For example, dissenting opinion represented as "trying to stop the debate", disagreement as "attack" and counter-argument as rejection of all possible criticism or worship of the "sacred cow". And, of course, those who set out to be provocative should really not be surprised if they provoke.

In the context of argument about the different characteristics of the SNSM and the RNLI, there is one other point that may be relevant. The RNLI's approach to saving life at sea does not, of course, stop at sending out boats to casualties and continuous technical development of boats and equipment, many of which find their way into the mainstream of seafaring knowledge and practice. They also run a wide range of nationwide sea safety campaigns, educational and advisory activities. Once again, the value of some of these may be questioned. Of course opinions will vary. That is inevitable. But these activites are also important elements of the nature of the beast as a whole. I know the SNSM issues advisory materials because I have seen and used them, but I have no idea whether this kind of hands on educational activity is also part of their remit I know not.

 

[chanelyacht]

Thank you for this post; I appreciate it.

Just as an aside - I spoke of looming finance problems. Well I just received this in my mail this afternoon:

http://www.tdg.ch/front/tagesthemen/news/standard/Un-crash-boursier-serait-imminent/story/17175838

An expert predicts an imminent 10% correction in stock market levels. Stateside I have heard of a potential 90% devaluation of the dollar. They need to get cracking on the oil schist situation toi stave this off.

Well, that's certainly not my area of expertise, but I do know for a number of years I've had a very uneasy gut feel that we've been pumping air into an economic balloon, and one day the inevitable burst will happen.

I'm not one of the US type "survivalists", but there are times I'm very glad I have a few chickens and sheep! I think you're probably right, we're in for a rough ride - but I think it's one France, with it's population's closer attachment to natural food and a connection with the land, will survive better that the urban UK.

 

[lustyd]

OH? I thought the purpose of both was to save lives at sea?

As is a life ring - why don't the French rely exclusively on these rather than wasting money on boats? Surely they achieve the same thing?

 

[maxi77]

Well economic forecasters do often seem to be a short step removed from necromancers of a previous age and frankly at the moment you could probably find one to predict any future you fancied. I agree we are in for a stormy ride, but interestingly having listened to R4s From Our Own Correspondent this morning France seems to be well and truly in the brown stuff. The comparison between Britain and France reminded of 70s comparisons between Britain and Germany but this time it was France painted as the loser and the BBC are hardly renowned for their positive view of the British economy.

I remember my economics lecturer telling us if you laid all the worlds economists end to end you would never reach a conclusion.

 

[Koeketiene]

So, having failed to convince anybody that the RNLI is procuring the wrong boats and buying the wrong systems and even having failed to convince the majority that the RNLI is paying it's employees too much and spending too much on non-essentials, now apparently the very financial model that permits the RNLI to fund such "excess" is flawed

Let's face, trying to convince a majority on this forum that anything foreign, let alone French, might have merit is a bit of a lost cause.

 

[davidej]

Let's face, trying to convince a majority on this forum that anything foreign, let alone French, might have merit is a bit of a lost cause.

Which is a surprise considering how many of us own French-built boats _ Bene, Jan, Dufour, etc

 

[Litotes]

Let's face, trying to convince a majority on this forum that anything foreign, let alone French, might have merit is a bit of a lost cause.

And yet there is nowhere like this forum for endless moaning about all things British.

Yet again, genuine counter-argument is ascribed to childish prejudice.

What a gulf is fixed between the world of the internet and real life (at least, as I experience it)

 

[Koeketiene]

Which is a surprise considering how many of us own French-built boats _ Bene, Jan, Dufour, etc

Possibly, but certainly not the majority of the most vocal protagonists in this thread.
Guess they, like me, have just lost the will to keep on reading.

 

[TimBennet]

The only way you're going to sort this out is to put both boats to sea in the same conditions and wire up the crew to measure their physiological parameters and give them a series of difficult tasks to do over an extended period of time. If one boat allows their crew to perform better (and that's the only way these things actually rescue people is by enabling the crew to do their jobs in any given conditions at sea), then it's the better boat.

If one boat's better performance results in the crew being able to rescue someone when the crew of the other couldn't, then the bean counters can put a value on that life and work out if the cost of the boat was 'worth it'.

The test conditions I would suggest, should be the same as experienced by one of the RNLI's beach launched boats with which I have some experience. There's no point in making these thing's up! So we have an 11 hour service, mid winter, air temperature at minus four, breaking seas running at forty feet and winds recorded at Hurricane Force 15.

But however 'informative' such a test might be, it's completely irrelevant. What matters here is that the RNLI has an unwritten, but mutually understood covenant between the crews and the organisation. And it is this: In return for your commitment to put your lives on the line, we (the RNLI) promise to do all we can to provide you with the very best equipment we can manage. Not the most cost effective, not as good as someone else's, but the best we can design and build and the best the British public are prepared to fund.

Now, the service above was undertaken in the generation of carriage boat before last: An Oakley 37 which was essentially an open boat with little shelter, equipped solely with an MF radio and DF loop. But at the time it was believed to be the best thing that was available. You can still see old boys limping around town troubled by their frostbite, but whatever pain they still have to endure at least isn't made worse by knowing that the RNLI saved a bob or two and only got them kit that was 'value for money', instead of the best that could be managed.

Now if you want to alter that covenant, then I suggest you get the agreement of every crew member around the country. And every Hon. Sec. (or now Station Manager) who agree to each launch and wait behind, comforted solely by the knowledge that nothing more could be done to ensure the crew's safe return.

I know enough about the RNLI to appreciate they'll always be debates about how things should be done. But whatever path is taken, that covenant shouldn't be broken whilst they have the resources to honour it.

 

[Bru]

Let's face, trying to convince a majority on this forum that anything foreign, let alone French, might have merit is a bit of a lost cause.

well as it happens, and since you quote my post and then respond to it as above, I'll scupper that one straight away since I own a French car

Not by chance, not because it was all I could get, but through choice because it was the best combination of features and cost and offered a significantly better finance package than anybody else

So some things French do have merit as it happens

And it's entirely possible, indeed likely, that if you need a model for how to run a maritime rescue service on a shoe string budget the SNMS may be the world leader. Happily, the RNLI doesn't need to operate on a shoe string budget

 

[chanelyacht]

The only way you're going to sort this out is to put both boats to sea in the same conditions and wire up the crew to measure their physiological parameters and give them a series of difficult tasks to do over an extended period of time. If one boat allows their crew to perform better (and that's the only way these things actually rescue people is by enabling the crew to do their jobs in any given conditions at sea), then it's the better boat.

If one boat's better performance results in the crew being able to rescue someone when the crew of the other couldn't, then the bean counters can put a value on that life and work out if the cost of the boat was 'worth it'.

The test conditions I would suggest, should be the same as experienced by one of the RNLI's beach launched boats with which I have some experience. There's no point in making these thing's up! So we have an 11 hour service, mid winter, air temperature at minus four, breaking seas running at forty feet and winds recorded at Hurricane Force 15.

But however 'informative' such a test might be, it's completely irrelevant. What matters here is that the RNLI has an unwritten, but mutually understood covenant between the crews and the organisation. And it is this: In return for your commitment to put your lives on the line, we (the RNLI) promise to do all we can to provide you with the very best equipment we can manage. Not the most cost effective, not as good as someone else's, but the best we can design and build and the best the British public are prepared to fund.

Now, the service above was undertaken in the generation of carriage boat before last: An Oakley 37 which was essentially an open boat with little shelter, equipped solely with an MF radio and DF loop. But at the time it was believed to be the best thing that was available. You can still see old boys limping around town troubled by their frostbite, but whatever pain they still have to endure at least isn't made worse by knowing that the RNLI saved a bob or two and only got them kit that was 'value for money', instead of the best that could be managed.

Now if you want to alter that covenant, then I suggest you get the agreement of every crew member around the country. And every Hon. Sec. (or now Station Manager) who agree to each launch and wait behind, comforted solely by the knowledge that nothing more could be done to ensure the crew's safe return.

I know enough about the RNLI to appreciate they'll always be debates about how things should be done. But whatever path is taken, that covenant shouldn't be broken whilst they have the resources to honour it.

Exactly.

There is a thing called the heirarchy of rescue - and it's self, team, bystander, casualty. Sorry to be harsh, but the casualty is already in the brown stuff - no point putting someone else in there if it can be helped.

In every adverse weather tasking, at the forefront of my mind as a SAR coordinator is the conditions that I'm putting people into - and if I have concerns over the level of kit and protection those people have, then I'll think twice - and the casualty may suffer.

A good friend of mine was on watch the night of the Union Star - and he remembers well the horrible sense of foreboding in the ops room that night when the repeated "Penlee Lifeboat, Falmouth Coastguard" calls went unanswered.

The RNLI (and the indies) do an amazing job. I don't care personally if they want their boats covered in gold plate and diamonds - I'm in a warm ops room. If they can fund it, they get what they want. End of.

 

[Litotes]

A good friend of mine was on watch the night of the Union Star - and he remembers well the horrible sense of foreboding in the ops room that night when the repeated "Penlee Lifeboat, Falmouth Coastguard" calls went unanswered.

Even now, the memory of those calls, as broadcast on the news or on a programme about the Penlee disaster - I can't remember which - brings tears to my eyes.

As does the memory of the occasion (I was in the audience) on which Superintendant Coxswain Brian Bevan of the Humber Lifeboat collected his gold, silver and bronze medals, all of which had been earned in a single year. The laconic and unemotional descriptions of the services involved were far more moving than any gushing praise for the courage, skill and endurance involved.

Yes, I'm a softy. And yes, I am equally moved by the courage, skill and, sometimes, sacrifice, of the French lifeboatmen, whom I have encountered during my many years of sailing in French waters.

 

[chanelyacht]

Even now, the memory of those calls, as broadcast on the news or on a programme about the Penlee disaster - I can't remember which - brings tears to my eyes.

As does the memory of the occasion (I was in the audience) on which Superintendant Coxswain Brian Bevan of the Humber Lifeboat collected his gold, silver and bronze medals, all of which had been earned in a single year. The laconic and unemotional descriptions of the services involved were far more moving than any gushing praise for the courage, skill and endurance involved.

Yes, I'm a softy. And yes, I am equally moved by the courage, skill and, sometimes, sacrifice, of the French lifeboatmen, whom I have encountered during my many years of sailing in French waters.

The BBC Four documentary "Cruel Sea" is probably the one you mean - the chilling calls are recorded about 40 minutes in.

I'm still convinced that from the way the coxn picked his crew, making sure no two were from the same family, he knew they wouldn't be coming back that night.

I'm probably regarded as a bit daft in our job for that, and the fact that every tasking, I feel the weight of that sort of responsibility. It doesn't change how I work, but it does influence - and it's something I try to get across to our newbies when they come in, especially those from no maritime background.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yeIX0VnUMKo

 

[Searush]

And yet there is nowhere like this forum for endless moaning about all things British.

Yet again, genuine counter-argument is ascribed to childish prejudice.

What a gulf is fixed between the world of the internet and real life (at least, as I experience it)

Don't worry, those that say we think the RNLI is a sacred cow are only revealing their own predjudices as they discount or ignore the information that shows them to be wrong.

 

[Sybarite]

Even now, the memory of those calls, as broadcast on the news or on a programme about the Penlee disaster - I can't remember which - brings tears to my eyes.

As does the memory of the occasion (I was in the audience) on which Superintendant Coxswain Brian Bevan of the Humber Lifeboat collected his gold, silver and bronze medals, all of which had been earned in a single year. The laconic and unemotional descriptions of the services involved were far more moving than any gushing praise for the courage, skill and endurance involved.

Yes, I'm a softy. And yes, I am equally moved by the courage, skill and, sometimes, sacrifice, of the French lifeboatmen, whom I have encountered during my many years of sailing in French waters.

Aber Wrac'h 1986 : the whole crew lost.

 

[maxi77]

Exactly.

There is a thing called the heirarchy of rescue - and it's self, team, bystander, casualty. Sorry to be harsh, but the casualty is already in the brown stuff - no point putting someone else in there if it can be helped.

In every adverse weather tasking, at the forefront of my mind as a SAR coordinator is the conditions that I'm putting people into - and if I have concerns over the level of kit and protection those people have, then I'll think twice - and the casualty may suffer.

A good friend of mine was on watch the night of the Union Star - and he remembers well the horrible sense of foreboding in the ops room that night when the repeated "Penlee Lifeboat, Falmouth Coastguard" calls went unanswered.

The RNLI (and the indies) do an amazing job. I don't care personally if they want their boats covered in gold plate and diamonds - I'm in a warm ops room. If they can fund it, they get what they want. End of.

Very much my own view, we have had enough disasters for my lifetime, I think the first one I can really remember was Broughty Ferry. The time I will really start to question the RNLI is when a lifeboatmans life is lost through penny pinching.

 

[Litotes]

Aber Wrac'h 1986 : the whole crew lost.

Yes. I knew about that one. L'Aber Wrac'h was a frequent port of call. (Is the Baie des Anges still going? We had some memorable meals there) And I am quite sure that the community there was as devastated as were the people of Moushole in Cornwall whence came the Penlee crew.

Kind of puts these squabbles into perspective, doesn't it?