If I were an RNLI donor I would not be happy.

Dear Sybarite,
I have a RNLI direct debit and am glad you have posted this thread, it's always good to hold organisations accountable.
I am quite sure many of the big gobs posting criticisms don't donate.
Interesting thread.
 
I must admit that I think the RNLI is a fantastic organisation and I tend to get dewy eyed with a lump in my throat about them....so I am a little biased!
However, I'm not daft enought to think that they get everything right all the time; but any organisation of any size will make mistakes from time to time.

On the face of it, it is difficult to understand why largely similar boats appear to cost the RNLI three times more than their French counterparts. From the link given earlier I see that the Shannon is at prototype stage, so that may explain part of the difference. The other thing is that RNLI is fund raising and I wouldn't be at all surprised if it suits them to inflate the figures to try to get more donations.
It would be interesting to hear what the real differences are between the boats but a difference in costs to a factor of three does seem a little questionable.
 
Sybarite said:
I've already stated it twice:


By comparing notes perhaps you might get a better deal and better value for money.
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If you don't contribute you get outstanding value for money.

It's a charity.
The have loads and loads of money so do not need to be thrifty.
If everyone stopped giving them money for a while we could find out how financially creative the are.
Continuing to give them money is like giving a drunk another beer.
 
Ex-SolentBoy said:
If you don't contribute you get outstanding value for money
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And all those non-seagoing types putting money into RNLI tins or buying nautical trays - they must get appalling value for money :eek:

BTW I mustn't show this thread to my young son who is proud to be a member of 'Storm Force' the junior RNLI club.
 
King Penguin said:
mmmmm....Firstly, I can read French and I went to the site; and I don't wish to be rude but looking at the source, it is 'marketing orientated' which is not the same as the audited accounts which is the source he is using for his comparision for the RNLI. From my experience this can lead to very different results. It's like comparing apples with pears.

But lets, for the sake of the argument, say they are fair and compare them, for instance, the number of 'shouts', one can see that the SNSM site they had 4,920 shouts.

The RNLI in the same period had 8,905 lifeboat 'shouts' and 15,625 Lifeguard shouts making a total number of 'shouts' of 24, 530 (as costed in the RNLI audited accounts).

Surely you can see that the operating costs of the RNLI will be much, much higher than the SNSM as they are dealing with almost twice the number of lifeboat shouts plus all their lifeguard activity, so for Sybarite to say they are 'largely comparable' is nonsense in my book and I am sure many others would agree with me.

Another of his comparisons was to compare the total fleet size and I asked him how many all weather lifeboats the SNSM had compared to the RNLI, as I am sure you would agree this will make a huge difference to the total costs of running each organisation, let alone building and equiping them, ie, it is obviously cheaper to run a rib than a full blown Severn Class lifeboat.

He has been unable or unwilling to answer this, so to say they are 'largely comparable' without this significant piece of information is meaningless and I'm sure you would agree with this too.

Finally, the RNLI covers not only the UK but Ireland as well, which combines to make a huge coastline, much larger than the French coastline. Apples and pears, chalk and cheese come to mind.

So yes, I can read French and I stand by comment, his 'largely comparable' comparisons are meaningless.

I hope that answers your question
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The sites are not clear on how many boats there are of each type and I don't like adding information that I cannot stand over. However I have followed the comparisons of figures between the two organisations over a number of years now and the ball-park comparability has always worked.

Have the RNLI changed the basis of their shouts figures? There have been a few threads on here (in which I did not participate) where it was suggested that the crews came out when really there was no call for it eg somebody who radioed that he couldn't start his engine and said he would return under sail - or some similarly banal motive - and the lifeboat was sent out.

Logic would suggest that there are more boaters in France on the water than in the UK and the season lasts longer; therefore to suggest that suddenly the UK has a multiple of shouts compared with France would leave me very dubious. Are French sailors so much better than British sailors ..... ?? (ducks ;-)) )

However that is not the point. The point is that there is a different philosophical approach ie two models. In France it can be said to be nearly completely volunteer-based and where their total operating budget is about 1/3 of the RNLI salary budget.

You either accept the structure as it is or not - those are your subscriptions - but, when boats start costing a multiple of their counter-parts, then something is really wrong. Either that or you lose all sense of proportion with respect to value. Think of £ 1 000 000 - that is the difference in the cost of two not-top-of-the-range vessels.
 
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King Penguin said:
mmmmm....Firstly, I can read French and I went to the site; and I don't wish to be rude but looking at the source, it is 'marketing orientated' which is not the same as the audited accounts which is the source he is using for his comparision for the RNLI. From my experience this can lead to very different results. It's like comparing apples with pears.

But lets, for the sake of the argument, say they are fair and compare them, for instance, the number of 'shouts', one can see that the SNSM site they had 4,920 shouts.

The RNLI in the same period had 8,905 lifeboat 'shouts' and 15,625 Lifeguard shouts making a total number of 'shouts' of 24, 530 (as costed in the RNLI audited accounts).

Surely you can see that the operating costs of the RNLI will be much, much higher than the SNSM as they are dealing with almost twice the number of lifeboat shouts plus all their lifeguard activity, so for Sybarite to say they are 'largely comparable' is nonsense in my book and I am sure many others would agree with me.

Another of his comparisons was to compare the total fleet size and I asked him how many all weather lifeboats the SNSM had compared to the RNLI, as I am sure you would agree this will make a huge difference to the total costs of running each organisation, let alone building and equiping them, ie, it is obviously cheaper to run a rib than a full blown Severn Class lifeboat.

He has been unable or unwilling to answer this, so to say they are 'largely comparable' without this significant piece of information is meaningless and I'm sure you would agree with this too.

Finally, the RNLI covers not only the UK but Ireland as well, which combines to make a huge coastline, much larger than the French coastline. Apples and pears, chalk and cheese come to mind.

So yes, I can read French and I stand by comment, his 'largely comparable' comparisons are meaningless.

I hope that answers your question
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As you can read French here is the statutory auditors' report:

http://www.snsm.org/sites/default/files/Rapport annuel commissaire au compte 2011.pdf

I did in fact get the comparability of the payroll figures wrong: RNLI use full time equivalents in their reporting. If the SNSM did that, their payroll number would be 64 instead of the 70 I mentionned. Sorry. They were paid an aggregate of £2.1m or 4% of the RNLI amount.
 
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Searush said:
You just have no idea, do you? I did point out that it is a fully submersible tractor & turntable unit capable of operating off beaches at any state of the tide over mud, sand or shingle. It is not just a trailer, and I suspect you are entirely clear about that but choose to tell lies to discredit them. It actually discredits you.
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any contraption, submersible or other, towed by a tractor is a trailer in my book. not lies or an attempt to discredit, simply an interpretation.

Searush said:
And the salaries? Compare them with any equivalent large company & I think you will find they are below average for the responsibilities undertaken. So stop your petty mis-information & try doing something useful for a change.
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from the rnli 2011 accounts:

The average number of employees, calculated on a full-time equivalent (FTE) basis, analysed by function was:
2011
Number
Rescue 649
Prevention 33
Operational maintenance and construction 462
Innovation 39
International 1
Support and governance 198
Generation of voluntary income 212
Merchandising and other trading 25
Total 1,619

as we have already seen the top 42 staff receive a total of £3.7 million from a total salary budget of £56 million.
a little division will tell you that the remaining 1577 staff receive an average of £33 500 p.a.- not bad really seeing as the national average is £26k
great management!
still with over half a billion in the bank we should still get our services, which we pay for, yet it seems that you are satisfied with the management and that i should just stay silent and be grateful. lol.

these issues really do matter as has already been pointed out.

Searush said:
The RNLI are not above criticism, but it does need to be honest, true & reasonable if it is to help improve them. Your childish rants appear to be far from that. What did the RNLI do to you to be dissed in this manner?
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how is quoting rnli figures a childish rant? i fail to see what i have said to deserve this unwarranted personal attack.
obviously, i do support the rnli but, in its current form, that may not continue indefinitely.

p.s. i do believe that dylan winter has a fully submersible trailer the rnli might be interested in.
 
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viago said:
any contraption, submersible or other, towed by a tractor is a trailer in my book. not lies or an attempt to discredit, simply an interpretation.
(snip).
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So you are still ignoring the cost of the submersible tractor then? :rolleyes:

An average cost of 33K for management is cheap, I was earning that 20 years ago as a second level manager in a large private company. 26K is the UK average salary & includes millions on minimum wage. You are being deliberately selective in your use of your statistics & "facts". It does you no credit.

Area Sales managers are on 40-50kpa, head masters & heads of department in schools will be on 30-50K, I'll bet Police inspectors will be somewhere around that too.
 
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Searush said:
So you are still ignoring the cost of the sumbersible tractor then? :rolleyes:

An average cost of 33K for management is cheap, I was earning that 20 years ago as a second level manager in a large private company. 26K is the UK average salary & includes millions on minimum wage. You are being deliberately selective in your use of your statistics & "facts". It does you no credit.

Area Sales managers are on 40-50kpa, head masters & heads of department in schools will be on 30-50K, I'll bet Police inspectors will be somewhere around that too.
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What I am saying is that the French run a similar service on a volunteer basis. No salary.
 
Sybarite said:
What I am saying is that the French run a similar service on a volunteer basis. No salary.
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Fine, I am a donor to RNLI, unlike you, & I am happy with their arrangements for my safety, even tho I have never called on them in the 30 years I have contributed. I suppose you think that is poor value for my money. But I have had much entertainment (& some education) from the quarterly magazine when reading about the people they HAVE rescued.

You do not contribute in any way, so why should you give a damn? :confused:
 
Sybarite said:
What I am saying is that the French run a similar service on a volunteer basis. No salary.
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i give up sybarite there's no getting through. i even gave the breakdown of staff deployment, but to no avail. i even left the 649 non-salaried rescue personnel in my calculations as a tempter.
im afraid you're on your own from here in.
good luck.
 
Searush said:
Fine, I am a donor to RNLI, unlike you, & I am happy with their arrangements for my safety, even tho I have never called on them in the 30 years I have contributed. I suppose you think that is poor value for my money. But I have had much entertainment (& some education) from the quarterly magazine when reading about the people they HAVE rescued.

You do not contribute in any way, so why should you give a damn? :confused:
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Because in these hard times it's perhaps time for a reality check. Based on it's current structure personally I wouldn't contribute even though I have in the past. I do care deeply about the service performed by the loyal volunteers and crews. I just would not want to contribute to a charity where so many people earn more than I do, which can rack up a surplus of £29m in the year and have reserves of £579m.

In their blurb they talk about offering the best service for a minimum of cost and that their intention is to run a lean organisation.

Well - they have a model...
 
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