If I were an RNLI donor I would not be happy.

Sybarite said:
That is just frankly insulting.
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So is your continual criticism of the RNLI!

From what I can see from your arguments, you seem to be one of the "stack 'em high and sell 'em cheap" merchants!

I really think that you would do well to keep your opinions to yourself on this one.
 
King Penguin said:
As we have all now found out that your figures for employees were completely inaccurate and paid employees numbers were similar, SNSM paid employees = 1,200, RNLI paid employees = 1,300, but the RNLI had 10 times as many call outs and incidents compared to SNSM.

We also found out that your boat building costs were also inaccurate, the above stat is meaningless without knowing the number of all big weather boats in each service (ie, the big expensive ones to build and run).

Don't tell me they are just 'largely comparable'...........because, as we've seen, your largely comparable comparisons have so far been laughably inaccurate......
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I don't know where you got your figures from - cloud cuckoo land comes to mind....

For 2011 :

5800 local volunteers
1200 local volunteer managers

7000 total volunteers in 221 stations and 32 training centres.

Paid staff 70 managed by volunteer managers

The whole overseen by a volunteer President.

Shouts : 4920
Lives saved 8168

Source :

http://www.snsm.org/page/organisation-de-la-snsm

Perhaps you would like to provide your source?

My figures for the RNLI employees come from the last audited accounts.
 
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Sybarite - I think you should give up.

Personally I believe your points are valid; but logic, sound data sources and well-reasoned arguments are largely alien to people on these forums.

"My mind is made up - don't confuse me with facts"
 
Hoolie said:
Sybarite - I think you should give up.

Personally I believe your points are valid; but logic, sound data sources and well-reasoned arguments are largely alien to people on these forums.

"My mind is made up - don't confuse me with facts"
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I think he should give up too, I really don't understand what he hoped to achieve by starting this thread.
 
Sybarite said:
I don't know where you got your figures from - cloud cuckoo land comes to mind....

For 2011 :

5800 local volunteers
1200 local volunteer managers

7000 total volunteers in 221 stations and 32 training centres.

Paid staff 70 managed by volunteer managers

The whole overseen by a volunteer President.

Shouts : 4920
Lives saved 8168

Source :

http://www.snsm.org/page/organisation-de-la-snsm

Perhaps you would like to provide your source?

My figures for the RNLI employees come from the last audited accounts.
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You seem to have avoided my question by throwing yet more inaccurate interpretations of the stats.......I wonder why?

Yawn...........................................
 
King Penguin said:
You seem to have avoided my question by throwing yet more inaccurate interpretations of the stats.......I wonder why?

Yawn...........................................
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Try the audited accounts:

Operating expenses RNLI €188m (£150m : of which salaries : £56m)
Operating expenses SNSM €20m
 
King Penguin said:
You seem to have avoided my question by throwing yet more inaccurate interpretations of the stats.......I wonder why?

Yawn...........................................
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Could you please explain why you assert that Sybarite's interpretations are inaccurate? I've been through the SNSM site referred to and the figures quoted are sound.

Perhaps you should learn to read French ... ... ... if you can stay awake long enough
 
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Sybarite said:
By comparing notes perhaps you might get a better deal and better value for money.
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But we don't 'pay' for either service! They are charities and we choose to give to them or any other charity. I, like many others choose, to subscribe to our national rescue service and I even pop a few euros in the coffers of the one on the other side of la Manche.
 
I am a member of several voluntary organisations such as the RYS, National Trust etc. Each year they invite me to vote for the members of their governing boards.

I am also an Offshore "Member" of the RNLI and I may be wrong but I don't remember them doing the same.

I expect the RNLI will say that their constitution is different but, in this day and age, contributors expect a say in how their money is spent.

It can't be beyond the wit of those worthies who inhabit the upper reaches of the RNLI to come up with proposals to introduce some semblance of democracy into its governance.

Until then, we will just have to whinge in places such as this.

I know that, in the past, senoir mangement of the RNLI has responded to criticism in this forum. I invite them to respond to these.
 
davidej said:
I am a member of several voluntary organisations such as the RYS, National Trust etc. Each year they invite me to vote for the members of their governing boards.

I am also an Offshore "Member" of the RNLI and I may be wrong but I don't remember them doing the same.

I expect the RNLI will say that their constitution is different but, in this day and age, contributors expect a say in how their money is spent.

It can't be beyond the wit of those worthies who inhabit the upper reaches of the RNLI to come up with proposals to introduce some semblance of democracy into its governance.

Until then, we will just have to whinge in places such as this.

I know that, in the past, senoir mangement of the RNLI has responded to criticism in this forum. I invite them to respond to these.
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+1
 
davidej said:
I am a member of several voluntary organisations such as the RYS, National Trust etc. Each year they invite me to vote for the members of their governing boards.

I am also an Offshore "Member" of the RNLI and I may be wrong but I don't remember them doing the same.

I expect the RNLI will say that their constitution is different but, in this day and age, contributors expect a say in how their money is spent.
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I'm sorry David but I don't agree with this. Something like the National Trust, you have to pay to visit one of their properties, you have an obligation to give them money. The RNLI is a free service, it is total freedom of choice how much and how often you donate. I would imagine the majority of us that do, do so out of recognition and admiration of their work. This should not give us the right to dictate who or how the job is done.
 
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Chrusty 1 said:
I am very happy with the way things are, ta very much!
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I'm not.

If the RNLI could provide the same service for less money, then that can only be a good thing.

I'm an Offshore member and contribute by monthly DD. If the cost of their service is halved then, everything-else-being-equal, I'd be in the same financial position by giving half of what I currently give them to another charity, without effecting the service actually provided by the RNLI!

If any national charity is 'too' successful - and Lifeboats as an icon and the selflessness and sometimes the heroism of the volunteer crews have a huge pull on this nation's heartstrings - then smaller charities doing equally good and important work will find it harder to raise money from the same pool of discretionary giving.

Now, if the RNLI was a business and had the sort of reserves quoted in their accounts, wouldn't its shareholders want to know what the money was going to be used for beyond normal operating and contingency reserves: expansion, acquisition or a dividend back to them?

Does this clarify what that Sybarite is trying to express?
 
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Camelia said:
But we don't 'pay' for either service! They are charities and we choose to give to them or any other charity. I, like many others choose, to subscribe to our national rescue service and I even pop a few euros in the coffers of the one on the other side of la Manche.
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But we do!
If RNLI spent substantially less than they do, the excess charitable donations could be put to other uses eg coastal surveillance to augment our impoverished coastguard, helicopter S&R, more widespread safety and survival courses etc.
 
Hoolie said:
But we do!
If RNLI spent substantially less than they do, the excess charitable donations could be put to other uses eg coastal surveillance to augment our impoverished coastguard, helicopter S&R, more widespread safety and survival courses etc.
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No, I'm sorry, but your opinon - no matter how blindingly sensible - doesn't count here, because you've got one foot in France...
 
Hoolie said:
Could you please explain why you assert that Sybarite's interpretations are inaccurate? I've been through the SNSM site referred to and the figures quoted are sound.

Perhaps you should learn to read French ... ... ...
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mmmmm....Firstly, I can read French and I went to the site; and I don't wish to be rude but looking at the source, it is 'marketing orientated' which is not the same as the audited accounts which is the source he is using for his comparision for the RNLI. From my experience this can lead to very different results. It's like comparing apples with pears.

But lets, for the sake of the argument, say they are fair and compare them, for instance, the number of 'shouts', one can see that the SNSM site they had 4,920 shouts.

The RNLI in the same period had 8,905 lifeboat 'shouts' and 15,625 Lifeguard shouts making a total number of 'shouts' of 24, 530 (as costed in the RNLI audited accounts).

Surely you can see that the operating costs of the RNLI will be much, much higher than the SNSM as they are dealing with almost twice the number of lifeboat shouts plus all their lifeguard activity, so for Sybarite to say they are 'largely comparable' is nonsense in my book and I am sure many others would agree with me.

Another of his comparisons was to compare the total fleet size and I asked him how many all weather lifeboats the SNSM had compared to the RNLI, as I am sure you would agree this will make a huge difference to the total costs of running each organisation, let alone building and equiping them, ie, it is obviously cheaper to run a rib than a full blown Severn Class lifeboat.

He has been unable or unwilling to answer this, so to say they are 'largely comparable' without this significant piece of information is meaningless and I'm sure you would agree with this too.

Finally, the RNLI covers not only the UK but Ireland as well, which combines to make a huge coastline, much larger than the French coastline. Apples and pears, chalk and cheese come to mind.

So yes, I can read French and I stand by comment, his 'largely comparable' comparisons are meaningless.

I hope that answers your question
 
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Chrusty 1 said:
I really think that you would do well to keep your opinions to yourself on this one.
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Crap! The last thing Sybarite should do is keep his opinions to himself - nobody should. The opinions that differ from or own are by far the most valuable.

As it happens I think Sybarite is wrong on this - if people want to donate to the RNLI and the RNLI want to inject 1.5 million into the UK economy per boat and (presumably) get a boat they regard as superior out of the deal then great. I also am a bit dubious about the comparability[1] of the numbers.

Donors are private individuals; The RNLI is a private organisation. IMHO both can spend their money as they wish without regard for what anyone else thinks.

None the less alternative viewpoints are welcome. (Including the viewpoint that other viewpoints are not welcome.)

[1] have I invented a word?
 
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