Ideas for a new cruising boat please - which won't need yard storage...

roblpm said:
I just had a look. There dont seem to be any for sale! From memory some have open plan forecabin. The parker has a door! If you pm me I think I have some kelt/feeling magazine reviews I can email you.
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Then again actually the Parker doesn't have an aft cabin. Large quarter berth.
 
Tranona said:
Please provide documented evidence to support this statement.

If you cannot provide evidence then suggest you stop making such statements.
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A few months ago Yachting Monthly reported two, in one issue! Four lives lost on one, and two on the other.Such reports are becoming increasingly common.
They were rare, or almost nonexistent in the past.
The narrower the keel, the greater the leverage it has on the bolts.
The deeper the keel, the greater the leverage it has on the bolts.
Old rules on keel bolt cross section area per 1,000 lbs, have become grossly inaccurate.
 
Brent Swain said:
A few months ago Yachting Monthly reported two, in one issue! Four lives lost on one, and two on the other.Such reports are becoming increasingly common.
They were rare, or almost nonexistent in the past.
The narrower the keel, the greater the leverage it has on the bolts.
The deeper the keel, the greater the leverage it has on the bolts.
Old rules on keel bolt cross section area per 1,000 lbs, have become grossly inaccurate.
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You need to read the detail of the causes of these rare incidents before making sweeping statements. They are always more complex and individual and you have to set them in the context of the tens of thousands of similar boats whose keels are still very firmly attached.

I am afraid your understanding of keel structures and attachments is way out of date suggest you read at least the ABS standard on the subject (as this applies your side of the pond) or the latest ISO which applies in Europe. You may also find out that keel bolts themselves do not generally fail, but it is usually the supporting structure. You will discover all this if you took the trouble to read the reports of failures rather than relying on newspaper headlines and anecdotes.
 
Brent Swain said:
....
The narrower the keel, the greater the leverage it has on the bolts.
The deeper the keel, the greater the leverage it has on the bolts.
......
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What an outrageous statement.

You will have to go for re-education ;-)


PS

I also think a Fulmar has a lot to offer, they are spritely performers. Anything racier will possibly fail to meet the rest of the brief in terms of accommodation and price.
 
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doug748 said:
What an outrageous statement.

You will have to go for re-education ;-)
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Not outrageous, quite obviously a high aspect deep keel has far more chance of shearing off (whether by bolt or structural failure) than a longer shallower keel, if it hits (say) a rock at 5 kts. The smaller the section where it joins the hull, the greater the mounting strength needs to be and, as events over the years have shown, some designs have failed.
 
Concerto said:
It is good to hear you have sailed Fulmars in the past. But I would ask why were they used for sail training and racing? Your reply would be interesting, as when they were introduced in 1980 I raced against them for a number of years and they performed well in most conditions. As were Bosun dinghies, but I wouldn't recommend them either to someone who has expressed an interest in performance.

Nowhere in any of my posts did I compare the Fulmar to the 26' Hunter. The only post that contains a mention to both the Fulmar and Hunter 26 was made by Trevelyan - the originator of this thread. Not only have you attributed the comment to me, but you have also misquoted him. See post #13. No one said you did, nor did I quote anybody or attribute any comment to you. I admit my use of disingenuous was not ideal for which I apologise unreservedly. The point I was was trying to remake is that if the OP found Hunter 26 performance disappointing then he will find Westerlys equally so. The First 260, however, which I have neither owned nor enjoyed conversations with its designer, will offer more volume and excitement whilst being perfectly capable of reaching the Scillys in conditions in which most owners would choose to go there.

You have now suggested the more recently designed Hunter Channel 31, but a quick check shows it well outside the OP's top budget. https://www.michaelschmidt.co.uk/boatdetails.asp?boatid=6497854 Your comment as to their rating will probably be for a fin version, but Byron do not even quote any rating for the Hunter Channel 31. So no direct open comparison is available.

So try and be more accurate with your comments and helpful to Trevelyan, the OP.
I'll do my best and consider myself suitably chastised .
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Tranona said:
You need to read the detail of the causes of these rare incidents before making sweeping statements. They are always more complex and individual and you have to set them in the context of the tens of thousands of similar boats whose keels are still very firmly attached.

I am afraid your understanding of keel structures and attachments is way out of date suggest you read at least the ABS standard on the subject (as this applies your side of the pond) or the latest ISO which applies in Europe. You may also find out that keel bolts themselves do not generally fail, but it is usually the supporting structure. You will discover all this if you took the trouble to read the reports of failures rather than relying on newspaper headlines and anecdotes.
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Are you suggesting that narrowing the support base on a keel does NOT increase the leverage on the bolts OR the supporting structure?
Are you suggesting that deepening the keel does NOT increase the leverage on the bolts OR the supporting structure?
Are you suggesting that such basics of geometry change over time, in order to remain "In style?"
 
Got to admit I hadn't thought about a Parker 31... although that's a lot of weight in a massive winged keel - not sure how happy I'd be about the whole lot drying out routinely on a tidal mooring!!

Anyone going to throw me any fin keel or long keel on legs ideas?
 
Brent Swain said:
Are you suggesting that narrowing the support base on a keel does NOT increase the leverage on the bolts OR the supporting structure?
Are you suggesting that deepening the keel does NOT increase the leverage on the bolts OR the supporting structure?
Are you suggesting that such basics of geometry change over time, in order to remain "In style?"
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I am not suggesting anything of the sort and the latest standards take that into account. Just saying that keel bolts do not in general fail because they are not strong enough and that your understanding of failures is at odds with the evidence. You are correct that the old rules are just that and suggest that you read the new rules (which have been in use for over 20 years). Do that and read the reports of failures of keel structures in recent years and you might have a better understanding of the subject. You will also find that failures when they occur are much more complex than your simplistic and sweeping statements suggest.
 
Trevelyan said:
Anyone going to throw me any fin keel or long keel on legs ideas?
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It would be a long list. Basically anything, so long as it's shallow enough to get into your chosen spot, and so long as it has a reasonably flat keel base. Some more old fashioned designs like the Nic 26 would dry out bow down, but even that might not be a problem if the drying out spot has a slight slope on it.
 
Long keelers could fail you on two counts, they may lack the sparkling inshore performance you are looking for and also your partners preference for lavish internal space.

The narrower and deeper the keel the more you depend on the integrity of the engineering of your leg set up and any slip can lead, effectively, to the loss of the boat. You see a lot of smaller deep fins on legs in France but they are often in very sheltered spots where there is very little tidal flow and some mud. I dry out with 5ft 6in and a longish fin but would only do so supervised.

Seeing as the Etap did not suit my next gambit is a Sadler 34 bilge keel - but I am losing sight of your loa requirements. Vyv the metal dried his fin keel 34 out on legs (as Kelpie has said) and may disagree, if he sees this he might comment.

PS

The Dockrell 37 is a stretched version of Kelpie's boat and you do see examples for sale cheaply, but now I am getting giddy:
https://www.devalk.nl/en/yachtbrokerage/350605/DOCKRELL-37-(CENTERBOARD).html
 
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Sadler 34 is an interesting call in terms of bang for the buck - even the fin keelers look leggable.... my only thought on the Sadler is the accommodation isn't very spacious for a 34 footer! I'm probably more in the 28-32 foot range, but open to ideas!!
 
doug748 said:
Long keelers could fail you on two counts, they may lack the sparkling inshore performance you are looking for and also your partners preference for lavish internal space.

The narrower and deeper the keel the more you depend on the integrity of the engineering of your leg set up and any slip can lead, effectively, to the loss of the boat. You see a lot of smaller deep fins on legs in France but they are often in very sheltered spots where there is very little tidal flow and some mud. I dry out with 5ft 6in and a longish fin but would only do so supervised.

Seeing as the Etap did not suit my next gambit is a Sadler 34 bilge keel - but I am losing sight of your loa requirements. Vyv the metal dried his fin keel 34 out on legs (as Kelpie has said) and may disagree, if he sees this he might comment.

PS

The Dockrell 37 is a stretched version of Kelpie's boat and you do see examples for sale cheaply, but now I am getting giddy:
https://www.devalk.nl/en/yachtbrokerage/350605/DOCKRELL-37-(CENTERBOARD).html
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We viewed a Dockrell prior to buying the Deb 33, and it basically has a longer waterline and larger cockpit- the accommodation was the same though. They moved the mast aft, making it deck stepped, and made the rudder transom hung.
But I digress, it sounds like these boats may be a bit larger than what the op wants.
 
I've held off for a while but now you are talking long and/or deep keel I'll just mention the Stag 28. Swing Keel drawing 3ft/6ft, it would sit on its longish steel keel quite happily but would need legs to stay horizontal and safe. Ideal for 2 people but can handle 4 if you are all mates.
 
Also consider a Moody 33, preferably the mk2 as it's a better layout. Has a separate rear cabin, usually fin but some bilge keelers around. Or the later 336 which is same hull but walk through to the rear cabin. I'm biased of course, but mines a fin.
 
Stag 28 looks interesting, but it looks like it would need a deep water mooring for summer (the parker wouldn't), the cabin in the bow strikes me as strange as two singles -any way to make it a double (without cutting up woodwork!)? I will look up Moodys... although someone has told me they are, ahem, slow in the bilge keel configuration...
 
Trevelyan said:
Stag 28 looks interesting, but it looks like it would need a deep water mooring for summer (the parker wouldn't), the cabin in the bow strikes me as strange as two singles -any way to make it a double (without cutting up woodwork!)? ..
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Ours has an infill that rests on a couple of stringers screwed onto the sides of the 'V' and an extra cushion to fit. You end up with quite a large double. It doesn't look as though any woodwork has been cut but it was done when we bought the boat.
 
Trevelyan said:
Sadler 34 is an interesting call in terms of bang for the buck - even the fin keelers look leggable.... my only thought on the Sadler is the accommodation isn't very spacious for a 34 footer! I'm probably more in the 28-32 foot range, but open to ideas!!
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How about this then:

http://beneteau.apolloduck.co.uk/boat.phtml?id=366859

They also do a 29; much more dinghy like performance as long as it is kept light.
 
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