ICC woes... do I really need it

[tomdmx]

Yes I thought its a bit OTT from RYA (especially when the chap from RYA started quoting UN regulation related to EU lol)...anyway in haste I paid for the practical test so going for it tomorrow (could not cancel after payment)..so will get this over and done with...but this just added to my willingness to move onboard and get away asap

 

[Tranona]

Yes I thought its a bit OTT from RYA (especially when the chap from RYA started quoting UN regulation related to EU lol)...anyway in haste I paid for the practical test so going for it tomorrow (could not cancel after payment)..so will get this over and done with...but this just added to my willingness to move onboard and get away asap

He is only telling you the truth. Would you rather have that than listen to others on here who don't know what they are talking about?

 

[tomdmx]

You are not wrong but I wasn't blaming the very nice chap (he was very helpful)..my issue in the beaurocracy in the likes of RYA...and the way it judges itself to state that even a basic (day skipper) RYA course must be better than something more advanced of another country (ofcourse not openly), its rather ignorant and very self proclaiming in a community which I view as the opposite..anyway like I said before, I'm sure I will refresh on things but it made my mind up about becoming a member of such an organisation

 

[Ariadne]

Tranona, read post No.37 - that's it in a nutshell; you may not like it but there you go.

If the UK don't have legislation in place for compulsory licensing of skippers then no other country can expect a UK registered pleasure vessel to have one. Which is why there are so many SSR registered vessels owned by Spanish, Italian, Greek, etc, etc, as neither they nor their vessel needs to be licensed or the vessel to have an annual survey to comply with the home countries own legislation.

You can defend the RYA and it's money grabbing schemes to get more cash from the boat owner by running courses that depend on you having done the previous course at great expense to obtain a ticket that is legally (unless you have the MCA approved commercial endorsement) worth nothing. It's brilliant publicity and marketing by them to have actually convinced thousands of intelligent people that they need all their (RYA) qualifications to leave the UK shores.

This doesn't mean I agree with idiots getting in a boat without any knowledge and charging off to France for some cheap wine and fags. As I think that compulsory licensing should be brought in, there are far to many fools out there. But the ICC isn't the way forward.

 

[BrianH]

This ICC thing is a load of cobblers, you don't need it to travel anywhere in Europe or the rest of the world as there is no compulsory licensing for pleasure vessels in the UK or for their Masters/Captains or Skippers (delete as you see fit). So if you don't need it in your home country then no other country can insist on you having to carry one; simple.

Not so simple; any country can make any conditions it wishes for visitors to its waters, whatever the flagged state has, or has not, as requirements. Croatia insists on some form of certificate of competence before granting entry. It need not necessarily be an ICC - the list of accepted certificates is here. Even charter companies will ensure their prospective customers can provide one before accepting their booking - or so they have been instructed by the government. As all charter yachts are equipped with VHF they also require that someone on board has a VHF SRC.

I have personally witnessed a refusal to grant entry to a British skipper in Umag, northern Istria, when clearing there once.

 

[Blue5]

Yes I thought its a bit OTT from RYA (especially when the chap from RYA started quoting UN regulation related to EU lol)...anyway in haste I paid for the practical test so going for it tomorrow (could not cancel after payment)..so will get this over and done with...but this just added to my willingness to move onboard and get away asap

And when you get away and get stopped and boarded in Europe the ICC is the bit of paper that is on their list for inspection, it will be no good remonstrating that an expert on YBW said I did not need it but your choice.

Me, I would rather take the paperwork they think they require and enjoy expedious passage.

 

[vyv_cox]

If the UK don't have legislation in place for compulsory licensing of skippers then no other country can expect a UK registered pleasure vessel to have one.

Greek port police have asked to see my ICC on two occasions. I have one, so did not find the consequences of not being able to show it. No doubt my life would have been disrupted to some extent if I had not.

It is impossible to predict what paperwork Mediterranean authorities will deem to be necessary, it varies from port to port. Other than the obvious ones we have been asked for the receipt for our DEKPA (in case we had forged it?) receipt for our previous winter's berthing and new crew lists ad nauseam, even though we have been the same two people aboard for years.

 

[jacaldo]

I may be wrong but I have been told there is no data base for Day skipper practical making it not worth the paper it's written on. I have my Day skipper and ICC and looking at both of them it wouldn't take much skill to copy either????

 

[Solitaire]

I may be wrong but I have been told there is no data base for Day skipper practical making it not worth the paper it's written on. I have my Day skipper and ICC and looking at both of them it wouldn't take much skill to copy either????

Another misconception! There is certainly a database for the ICC and there is now a database for Day Skipper as well.

 

[Happydaze]

Greek port police have asked to see my ICC on two occasions. I have one, so did not find the consequences of not being able to show it. No doubt my life would have been disrupted to some extent if I had not.

It is impossible to predict what paperwork Mediterranean authorities will deem to be necessary, it varies from port to port. Other than the obvious ones we have been asked for the receipt for our DEKPA (in case we had forged it?) receipt for our previous winter's berthing and new crew lists ad nauseam, even though we have been the same two people aboard for years.

My wife was asked for her yachting qualification in Preveza, Greece, and as she does not have one, they asked her to sign a bit of paper to say she knows how to handle a boat. No big deal.

 

[OldBawley]

I have a question to.
Although not been Belgian any more, I have a Belgian “ Driving license” for a “ Pleasure craft”. Issued in 1993, came automatic because before that I had a “International licence”
To obtain the latter, you had to be member of a “Yacht club”, spend a drink to all on the bar and that was it.
I had to present my “paper” to some French, Italian, Greek and Turk officials. Except for the French no one could read it, does not matter, I had a paper.
I am liveaboard, cruising The Med for 13 years now, never went “Home”
I have no idea whatsoever what is now compulsory in Belgium or Holland, to be honest, don’t give a damn.
Last week, at my old address ( 25 years ago ) in Belgium, some letter came, telling my VHF licence was now expired. When I did the tests back in 1991 it was a licence for life, now it was not for life any more, but I could buy a new one. Since the letter does not mention for how long the new one would be good ( Could be three weeks knowing the Belgian authorities ) I think I pass and keep my old one. Witch no one can read.
I know, time is moving on, one has to swim with the flow. Most of my ships papers are 30 years old, pre computer age, relics. I have given up, think surrendering is my last chance, will choose France, some years of French prison ( Hope they send me to where Pappion was ) will do me good.
Is there a reasonable way out for me?
A strong story of bureaucracy in Greece.
Some years ago I cleared in at Mandraki, Rhodos Island.
The officer asked for the ships insurance. I had the policy and the receipt a payment, but not the “Greek “ form. It was pre internet, had to have the form faxed to Greece, cost a fortune on telephone to get the “Specialist” in Holland on the line. Fax did not come, new attempt, Phone home.
After a week I had the paper, showed it to the officer, he looked at it from far, Ok.
Been curious, I asked the man why I had to go trough all that trouble, and what he did with all the yachts on the floating visitors pontoon. I knew all of the liveaboards there, most had no insurance at all.
Well he said, It is simple, I can´t ask them for that form because they have no insurance, can I.....

 

[JamesFrance]

I have now done a little more research on the Decree referred to on the French boat school federation site and in fact if you read the full detail of French law it does say that a sailing boat with an engine of over 6hp should have a permis for inland. Rather surprising that the federation should be publishing duff info.

http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affic...FTEXT000000648362&dateTexte=&categorieLien=id

Apologies for any misinformation I have passed on.

It would also appear that the French permis is only for French citizens, so the RYA would appear to be the only way for Brits.

 

[Solitaire]

Nor would the few hours training which makes the ICC a valueless qualification be sufficient to gain the French permis plaisance for motor boats.

The RYA system seems to be designed to provide a piece of paper to satisfy officials in other countries with no proper legal knowledge, whilst being a handy way to make some revenue for the RYA and it's trainers.

Oh really! Well I suggest you take the trouble to read what the French system involves.

The Recreational Permit (Permis Plaisance)
On 1 January 2008, a new system introduced. The Permis Plaisance is available for four different purposes. There are four permit types, one each for sea and inland waters, each of which can be extended. An applicant must be at least 16 years of age and provide the examination centre with a medical certificate. A theory and practical test must be passed before the permit is issued.
The basic permits are:
Sea Waters Inland Waters
Côtière Eaux Intérieures
sailing within 6 miles of shelter
(dock or safe anchorage appropriate to the craft) boats up to 20 metres
Test: QCM + practical Test: QCM + practical
The QCM is a theory test of 25 questions (four errors are allowed). Practical training may begin before the theory test is taken, but a permit is only issued when the practical and theory tests are passed.

A minimum of three hours practical training must take place at a training center.

So, their requirement is much less than the RYA Powerboat Level 2 which is 16 hours of training! and the ICC is limited to 10 metres.

Permits can be extended with additional tests and training. And that makes interesting reading!

The extension permits are:
Sea Waters Inland Waters
Hauturière (deep sea) Grande Plaisance Fluviale
no distance limit no length restrictions
Theory exam 1h30 9 hours practical training
Before being issued a permit for deep sea sailing (Hauturière), a theory test on navigation, tides, weather and regulations must be passed. To attain the "large river craft" permit,

the candidate must be at least 18 years of age and have done a minimum of 9 hours practical training on a boat of at least 20 metres in length.

So even the "big boat qualification" only asks for a minimum of 9 hours practical training. Again, far less than is required for any of the UK certificates.


The RYA's web site on the ICC is very clear and the problem comes when officials in other countries frankly interpret the rules in so many different ways.

The full details - in English. Boat Licences in France

I have had calls from boat owners in Spain who have had their boats locked to the dock because they don't have an ICC. I have had to show my ICC in Greece when I was delivering a boat and could not leave the port with out it! IMHO having one is a lot less hassle than not.

 

[tomdmx]

Well I went for the direct assessment today and passed no dramas, great instructor and actually a decent day for a sail in Southampton harbour (despite the rain and some fog) BUT I'm not sure anyone could fail it if they knew the basics

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

I have now done a little more research on the Decree referred to on the French boat school federation site and in fact if you read the full detail of French law it does say that a sailing boat with an engine of over 6hp should have a permis for inland. Rather surprising that the federation should be publishing duff info.

http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affic...FTEXT000000648362&dateTexte=&categorieLien=id

Apologies for any misinformation I have passed on.

It would also appear that the French permis is only for French citizens, so the RYA would appear to be the only way for Brits.

Cheers JF. Straight from the horse's mouth.

 

[Phil Mitchell]

As boat hire people on holiday DON'T need an ICC or CEVNI. If your going to buy a boat in France. How about registering a "Boat Hire Company" in the UK buy the boat as a company, and then produce a hire agreement, and hire the boat out to yourself? No need for any ICC or CEVNI.

 

[Phil Mitchell]

I'm British living in Thailand but I want to start cruising the French canals for 6 month at a time. I've had boats on the Thames for years. But I can't get an ICC in Thailand. Can you imagine how much it's going to cost me to fly to the UK, get transport, hotel, ICC test, then fly to France to buy a boat? That's one expensive piece of paper.

 

[Graham376]

I'm British living in Thailand but I want to start cruising the French canals for 6 month at a time. I've had boats on the Thames for years. But I can't get an ICC in Thailand. Can you imagine how much it's going to cost me to fly to the UK, get transport, hotel, ICC test, then fly to France to buy a boat? That's one expensive piece of paper.

Andaman run RYA courses in Phuket, and according to their web site - https://www.andaman-yachting.com/ they do ICC course.

 

[macd]

I'm British living in Thailand but I want to start cruising the French canals for 6 month at a time...

Be aware that brexit may limit you to three months in six throughout the Schengen area.

 

[Heckler]

Be aware that brexit may limit you to three months in six throughout the Schengen area.

May! Go to Portugal first, goto the council office, get a fiscal number, half an hour, then go to the general office and ask for a five year temporary residence, 15 euros, a few simple questions, the marina address suffices, and you are then a temporary resident of Portugal for the next five years.