vyv_cox
Well-known member
That's how it was for us, although it has been a few years now (2005). We took the CEVNI test, received the certificate, sent it off to RYA with the ICC booklet which was returned to us with the endorsement for inland.
ICC woes... do I really need it
- Thread starter tomdmx
- Start date
That's how it was for us, although it has been a few years now (2005). We took the CEVNI test, received the certificate, sent it off to RYA with the ICC booklet which was returned to us with the endorsement for inland.
JamesFrance
Member
So why would you want to waste your money on an ICC for France when it is not a requirement for French sailing yachts with auxilliary engines?
Does the RYA not make that clear?
Does the RYA not make that clear?
SimonD
Active member
In case it's of interest, I'm doing my this month with Moonfleet Sailing in Poole. Although they offer the test only on their Bavaria 36 for £95, I'm going for the weekend for £195. Website here: http://www.moonfleet.net/icc.htm
vyv_cox
Well-known member
As far as I remember I have been asked to show mine in France four times, but it could be five. Two inland on the Midi, two in marinas. One of these was in Cap d'Agde, where we had the mast restepped.
Andy and Lyn
New member
ditto Grehan!
If your just passing through the canals with an Aussie ticket, CEVNI passed exam cert and an on-line Vingette (printed yourself) would do me and i am pretty sure would suffice in the very unlikely event of getting inspected.
If your just passing through the canals with an Aussie ticket, CEVNI passed exam cert and an on-line Vingette (printed yourself) would do me and i am pretty sure would suffice in the very unlikely event of getting inspected.
truscott
Member
For the 95 Quid option, Moonfleet expect you to have completed your DS Practical (So they're charging you 95 Quid for something that the RYA does for 40 Quid for non-members and free for members).
If you've got your DS Practical and are not planning on using the inland waterways of Europe and therefore do not need the CEVNI endorsement, save yourself 95 Quid as everyone will accept the DS Practical anyway.
Cheers, PT.
Solitaire
Active member
No they are not. The state that if you have the DS practical then you can just complete the form and send it to the RYA. The £95 option is for them to do the assessment - not the same at all.
gavin_lacey
New member
I have had all documents inspected in Brest - they were not impressed by a club (RYA) being authorised to issue certs, this clearly being the role of civil servants.. I have seen other boats involved in marina manouvering clashes forced to provide proof of competence (Portugal). I think the problem would come if involved in an incident and you couldnt show a cert and the other guy can. Given that the culture in much of europe demands driving licences for boats the inability to provide an appopriate bit of paper would not be well regarded by the authorities.
Tranona
Well-known member
The requirement does not differentiate by mode of propulsion - logical as all canal use is under power, only by size (> 5m). The origin of the ICC is in fact in the CEVNI controlled waters, initially the German rivers but extended to canals/inland waterways across Europe, which in France is generally defined as above the first sea lock - so some are exempt such as the Caen canal and the Rance from the barrage to the first lock. The Dutch inland waterways are outside CEVNI and have different requirements.
The detailed explanation is on the RYA site, which one assumes is correct as it has been unchanged for many years.
(The ICC itself does differentiate power/sail, but because it is also used for purposes other than CEVNI. Either can be endorsed for Inland Waterways)
truscott
Member
JamesFrance
Member
Translation by Google from the French site I gave a link to before:
C / INFO
F.N.B.E.
When to have a boating license?
Decree No. 2007-1167 of 02.08.2007 (OJ of 03/08/2007) makes the conduct of recreational motor boats with holding one of the four options or extensions:
SEA WATER
puce OPTION COASTAL
puce OCEANIC EXPANSION
INLAND WATERS
puce OPTION INLAND
puce EXTENSION GREAT PLEASURE INLAND
Decree on the conduct of all PLEASURE BOATS except pleasure boats SAILS even equipped with an auxiliary motor.
No title is required to pilot a sailboat or motor yacht powered by a motor whose power does not exceed 4.5 kW (6.11 hp).
_______________________________
So if France does not require a license for it's own citizens why would they expect one for visitors?
C / INFO
F.N.B.E.
When to have a boating license?
Decree No. 2007-1167 of 02.08.2007 (OJ of 03/08/2007) makes the conduct of recreational motor boats with holding one of the four options or extensions:
SEA WATER
puce OPTION COASTAL
puce OCEANIC EXPANSION
INLAND WATERS
puce OPTION INLAND
puce EXTENSION GREAT PLEASURE INLAND
Decree on the conduct of all PLEASURE BOATS except pleasure boats SAILS even equipped with an auxiliary motor.
No title is required to pilot a sailboat or motor yacht powered by a motor whose power does not exceed 4.5 kW (6.11 hp).
_______________________________
So if France does not require a license for it's own citizens why would they expect one for visitors?
gavin_lacey
New member
This is a live aboard forum. How many live aboards use boats with less than 6hp engines? There are not many purists these days particularly not on a canal. NB Icc is free to RYA members who hold appropriate qualifications.
Tranona
Well-known member
Well, the advice is so specific and consistent that it is required that it would be surprising if it were wrong. In the canals the rules are governed by CEVNI requirements and the "test" of knowledge is compulsory.
However, I am aware that there are ways of avoiding the test, for example if you hire a boat in France, the hirer does the testing - otherwise presumably nobody would hire a boat if the full ICC was required.
However, I am aware that there are ways of avoiding the test, for example if you hire a boat in France, the hirer does the testing - otherwise presumably nobody would hire a boat if the full ICC was required.
JamesFrance
Member
You misunderstand. The license is not required for sailboats with auxilliary engines OR motorboats with engines below 6hp.
To clarify, as I understand the French requirement it is for a CEVNI test to be passed but not for a boaters license in order to travel the inland system. The French CEVNI test is not the simple box ticking exercise which the UK arrangement deems to be sufficient, but a proper examination.
Nor would the few hours training which makes the ICC a valueless qualification be sufficient to gain the French permis plaisance for motor boats.
The RYA system seems to be designed to provide a piece of paper to satisfy officials in other countries with no proper legal knowledge, whilst being a handy way to make some revenue for the RYA and it's trainers.
JamesFrance
Member
Hireboats are exempted from all requirements for commercial reasons, which makes the whole system ridiculous. However they don't usually travel on fast flowing rivers with peniches and serious trafic.
Tranona
Well-known member
Suggest you read what the RYA says. It is very clear that the ICC is accepted across the inland waterways and the requirements are as laid down by the UN to satisfy the minimum competence (irrespective of CEVNI). The test is just for the regulatory bits to add to the ICC.
It is not the "RYA system" - they only issue the certificates. The only other connection with the RYA is that some of its certificates can be used to meet the ICC requirement, or they authorise examination solely for the ICC. The UN define what is required. other countries also issue ICCs based either on holding a "licence" from that country or taking the test. It is formally accepted by countries who have signed up to Resolution 40 and effectively accepted by many other countries if proof of competence is required.
Suggest you read the full text of the background to the ICC on the RYA site so that you don't have any misunderstanding of what it is about.
Ariadne
Active member
This ICC thing is a load of cobblers, you don't need it to travel anywhere in Europe or the rest of the world as there is no compulsory licensing for pleasure vessels in the UK or for their Masters/Captains or Skippers (delete as you see fit). So if you don't need it in your home country then no other country can insist on you having to carry one; simple. Now you may need a CEVNI for the canals, but they can't insist on an ICC as it's not a compulsory bit of UK legislation. You may or not be able to hire a boat without an ICC - up to the hirer; many won't accept a MCA Deck Officer ticket as they want an ICC and don't/won't/cant be bothered to find out what other certification is out there - another good RYA proper-gander scam.
Could you imagine the political fallout and the rubbing of hands from the RYA (The money grabbing and self publicizing so called protectors of things UK sailing.) if a UK government insisted that everybody who owned a boat had to have it registered and hold a license - this forum alone would go into meltdown, never mind the yachting press and the rest of the country!
We've been full time liveaboards for the last five and a half years and I've never been asked to show my personal qualifications, ships radio license, etc in fact, the only things we ever get asked for is the Part 1 registry, insurance papers and passports.
It's your call, find out what the French actually want before you part with any cash.
Could you imagine the political fallout and the rubbing of hands from the RYA (The money grabbing and self publicizing so called protectors of things UK sailing.) if a UK government insisted that everybody who owned a boat had to have it registered and hold a license - this forum alone would go into meltdown, never mind the yachting press and the rest of the country!
We've been full time liveaboards for the last five and a half years and I've never been asked to show my personal qualifications, ships radio license, etc in fact, the only things we ever get asked for is the Part 1 registry, insurance papers and passports.
It's your call, find out what the French actually want before you part with any cash.
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toad_oftoadhall
New member
Cheers James France, this is quite interesting.
Can I just clarify what you're saying to get it into my head:
Are you saying the French don't require an ICC for an Sailboat (even under engine) to use inland waterways. However, because the RYA force you to have an ICC before you can have a CEVNI, British people do need an ICC?
Or are you saying that simply having some documentation that shows you have done the CEVNI bit is enough?
toad_oftoadhall
New member
That's my view. For all the weasel words on the RYA website they don't seem to be able to simply name the countries that require visitors to have it. I conslude that means there are probably none.
The USA does this so much better - I'm told in the states you can take a short online test and get a qual that allows you to use French Canals. Much less hassle.
Tranona
Well-known member
Just waiting for you to pop up with your usual load of rubbish.
If you were capable of reading what the RYA publish you will know the status of the ICC with all the incompleteness and ambiguity. And what you say about the States is simply not true (making a statement based on "I am told" - coming from somebody who claims never to believe anything unless he can read it for himself suggests you have not got a clue what you are talking about!). Every country issues ICCs (if it does at all) based on achieving the minimum requirements laid down in Resolution 40. In some countries this is simply based on the compulsory licence the state issues to its own citizens, in others, such as the UK and Australia it is based on achievement of other qualifications, or in other countries (as in the UK) it can be issued as the result of a one off exam to test the competences.
Inevitably, because different states have different systems, the means of getting an ICC is also different and has different costs. It is an (imperfect) attempt to provide a universal common currency in certification for pleasure boats.
If you treat it like that, which is how it is intended, it makes sense. If you want it to be something else you will be disappointed. If you wish to change it to something else, stand for election on the RYA, join the negotiating team that works with other countries and the UN and get it changed.
Just don't display your ignorance - go and see the RYA as they have asked you to and listen to what they say.