ICC: What's the actual 24m limit?

[Balearick]

I am looking to upgrade my boat soon(ish) and my choice is down to 2 boats, one just under the ICC 24m length limit at 22.5 (74ft) and one a tad over at 28.6m (94ft). I really like the 28.6m boat but I only hold an ICC "up to 24m" - so that means I'd have to get a Yachtmaster Coastal... or does it... What exactly is the length that is measured for the license purpose? Is it overall anchor to end-of-swim-platform, gun rail to transom, or the hull at waterline length?

I'm rather hoping someone will say "hull at waterline" so I can get away with just my 24m ICC... I so hate courses and tests.

 

[Wiggo]

YM Coastal and Offshore is the same 24m/200grt limit, I think...

 

[Imperial One]

Waterline length - I think & hope!
Check with the RYA or is that a bit too obvious a reply?

Ok, done that for you! NOTE over 24m load line -

It says -
RYA members will find more specific information in the individual country pages.
Note: where proof of competence is required under the Merchant Shipping Regulations i.e. UK pleasure vessels exceeding both 80 GT and 24m (load line) length (see Merchant Shipping Notice (MSN) 1802) and for any vessel which is used for commercial purposes, the ICC is insufficient and it must be supported by the requisite certificate of competence.

 

[smee]

YM Coastal and Offshore is the same 24m/200grt limit, I think...

Actually its 200grt with no length limit for YM Offshore (and probably the Coastal too!).

 

[oceanfroggie]

Does the length limit not only apply to "commercial" vessels once under the weight?

 

[jfm]

The 24m is complex. It is "load line length", which is neither LOA nor w/l length

I have read the rules many times but do not fully understnad them, and i have never met a surveyor who does. Plenty claim to, but cannot fit their claims to the exact words of the rules.

The rules say LLL is the greater of: (i) 96% of the total length on a waterline at 85% of the least moulded depth measured from the top of the keel, and (ii) the length from the foreside of the stem to the axis of the rudder stock on that waterline.

As a matter of English language, I don't know what "least moulded depth" is. i can guess, but that isn't the same. The words do not convey a precise meaning that I can see. I therefore interpret (i), with caution, as 96% of w/l length. (ii) is similarly hard to be sure about, but I take it as 96% of w/line length measured only as far back as the rudder stock, and therefore not relevant to mobos usually becuase (i) will generally trump it

So (i) is the test, 96% of w/l length

BUT the word "length" also carries its own definition, and helpfully it is: "the overall length from the foreside of the foremost fixed permanent structure to the aftside of the aftermost fixed permanent structure of the vessel". So you exclude swim platform, pulpits, davits, rubbing strakes, etc. Several manufacturers make the front nosecone of a mobo removeable to take a metre off the "length". Ferretti 830 does this, for example. You need to examine the boat carefully. HOWEVER, if LLL is measured only on a waterline, why would they go to the trouble of making a removeable nosecone? And why do the rules specifically tell you not to count the pulpit? VERY hard to fathom...

The text of the rules is at pp 22 and 23 of this doc but as i say be careful to distinguish between guesses and reasoned interpetation

Anyway, 94 foot is borderline. It can be done, but not all builders will do it. Sunseeker are good at it, and iirc (I might be wrong) even got the 105 below 24m LLL.

Tell us the model of boat for more info or at least some guesses, but if you are right on the borderline do not just beleive what anyone tells you becuase the rules are complex and many surveyors probably don't know either. Good luck!

 

[Balearick]

The 24m is complex. It is "load line length", which is neither LOA nor w/l length

I have read the rules many times but do not fully understnad them, and i have never met a surveyor who does. Plenty claim to, but cannot fit their claims to the exact words of the rules.

The rules say LLL is the greater of: (i) 96% of the total length on a waterline at 85% of the least moulded depth measured from the top of the keel, and (ii) the length from the foreside of the stem to the axis of the rudder stock on that waterline.

As a matter of English language, I don't know what "least moulded depth" is. i can guess, but that isn't the same. The words do not convey a precise meaning that I can see. I therefore interpret (i), with caution, as 96% of w/l length. (ii) is similarly hard to be sure about, but I take it as 96% of w/line length measured only as far back as the rudder stock, and therefore not relevant to mobos usually becuase (i) will generally trump it

So (i) is the test, 96% of w/l length

BUT the word "length" also carries its own definition, and helpfully it is: "the overall length from the foreside of the foremost fixed permanent structure to the aftside of the aftermost fixed permanent structure of the vessel". So you exclude swim platform, pulpits, davits, rubbing strakes, etc. Several manufacturers make the front nosecone of a mobo removeable to take a metre off the "length". Ferretti 830 does this, for example. You need to examine the boat carefully. HOWEVER, if LLL is measured only on a waterline, why would they go to the trouble of making a removeable nosecone? And why do the rules specifically tell you not to count the pulpit? VERY hard to fathom...

The text of the rules is at pp 22 and 23 of this doc but as i say be careful to distinguish between guesses and reasoned interpetation

Anyway, 94 foot is borderline. It can be done, but not all builders will do it. Sunseeker are good at it, and iirc (I might be wrong) even got the 105 below 24m LLL.

Tell us the model of boat for more info or at least some guesses, but if you are right on the borderline do not just beleive what anyone tells you becuase the rules are complex and many surveyors probably don't know either. Good luck!

The boat is a Couach 2800 Open. LOA 28.60m. Couach says "Hull length: 26.60m" meaning (I guess) the swim platform is 2m. If I interpret your definition of LLL a bit loosely and hope the police in the Med would too I can possibly squeeze 28.60m LOA to fit 24m LLL... I'm reading that doc now.

 

[jfm]

The boat is a Couach 2800 Open. LOA 28.60m. Couach says "Hull length: 26.60m" meaning (I guess) the swim platform is 2m. If I interpret your definition of LLL a bit loosely and hope the police in the Med would too I can possibly squeeze 28.60m LOA to fit 24m LLL... I'm reading that doc now.

Lovely boat!

Yup, applying some sensible guesswork and scaling the website drawings the swim platform and pulpit together are 2m so the hull is 26.6

Then you have the "85%" rule. I think (not 1005 sure, and wording isn't clear) this means you look at the boat in profile, find the lowest point of the deep V keel (which you have to guess, becuase the u/w is not shown on the website) then from there you go upwards to 85% of the way to the lowest gunwhale (aka "least moulded depth"). Now, you want the gunwhale to be as low as poss for this test. You might get surveyor to accept it is where the scuppers are, where the top of the blue paint joins the white on the web picm mainly because if you have open transom gates (tube construction I mean) that must be the right answer. Let's suppose the gunwhale is indeed there. 85% then seems to me to remove another 1.5-1.8m of length based on the angle of the stem, but not 2.6m. Ergo the boat looks >24m LLL to me

It therefore needs a removeable nosecone a la Ferretti to achieve <24m, but afaik Couach don't do that trick. Hence if you need it to be <24m I would check very carefully before contracting to buy it.

If you print off the profile pic, and you know the draft is 1.3m, you might be able to draw all this out more accurately. I mean draw the 85% line parallel to the waterline, and see how much length reduction that gives you at the bow and the stern. hope I'm wrong on it being over 24m, but you haven't got much headroom here. Good luck!

 

[Wiggo]

Actually its 200grt with no length limit for YM Offshore (and probably the Coastal too!).

Quite right. Although interestingly, if you look at the calculations to arrive at 200 grt you need a mobo of about 24m length, so at least it's reasonably consistent.

Jfm, if you do go over the limit, what certificates do you require, do you know? I'm guessing it depends on country of flagging, country of operation and nationality of skipper.

For example, a British flagged 28m boat with a British skipper based in SoF...

 

[Balearick]

Lovely boat!

Yup, applying some sensible guesswork and scaling the website drawings the swim platform and pulpit together are 2m so the hull is 26.6

Then you have the "85%" rule. I think (not 1005 sure, and wording isn't clear) this means you look at the boat in profile, find the lowest point of the deep V keel (which you have to guess, becuase the u/w is not shown on the website) then from there you go upwards to 85% of the way to the lowest gunwhale (aka "least moulded depth"). Now, you want the gunwhale to be as low as poss for this test. You might get surveyor to accept it is where the scuppers are, where the top of the blue paint joins the white on the web picm mainly because if you have open transom gates (tube construction I mean) that must be the right answer. Let's suppose the gunwhale is indeed there. 85% then seems to me to remove another 1.5-1.8m of length based on the angle of the stem, but not 2.6m. Ergo the boat looks >24m LLL to me

It therefore needs a removeable nosecone a la Ferretti to achieve <24m, but afaik Couach don't do that trick. Hence if you need it to be <24m I would check very carefully before contracting to buy it.

Great stuff, thanks!

I have a lot of variables that need to fall into place before buying this particular Couach boat, the biggest one being that the vendor's agent just told me this morning there's another offer on it (didn't say whether it was acceptable though, he's trying to hurry me up but I can't hurry on this one). I'll try asking my insurance company (Seippel and Light) about it, make sure they'll insure me to skipper it with my ICC.

If I lose this 2800 Open I'll be sad but it's not the end of the world as my other choice is a Squadron 74, which I'm sure you'll agree is a great choice and no ICC issues there...
(I can't actually afford a new Squadron 74 so it's going to have to be a 2005/6/7-something)

 

[jfm]

Great stuff, thanks!

I have a lot of variables that need to fall into place before buying this particular Couach boat, the biggest one being that the vendor's agent just told me this morning there's another offer on it (didn't say whether it was acceptable though, he's trying to hurry me up but I can't hurry on this one). I'll try asking my insurance company (Seippel and Light) about it, make sure they'll insure me to skipper it with my ICC.

If I lose this 2800 Open I'll be sad but it's not the end of the world as my other choice is a Squadron 74, which I'm sure you'll agree is a great choice and no ICC issues there...
(I can't actually afford a new Squadron 74 so it's going to have to be a 2005/6/7-something)

Good luck. Actually, my replies have focussed on the tecky question of what exactly is the 24m limit. But come to think of it, other posters incl wiggo 2 posts above might be barking up a better tree in discussiing whether you even need a licence, even if the boat is >24m LLL. This is a tricky point and there was a thread on it about 3 months ago, but the upshot is that if the boat is used only privately and UK registered as a pleasure boat then you are allowed to drive it without any special licence. At least, that's how i recall it, but I am not totally sure. Of course, regardless of whatever freedoms you might have in law, your insurance company and other interested parties (marina; local harbour rules; etc) might impose conditions on you.

The alternative of a big squadron would be an excellent choice. My specialist subject! Feel free to shout if you need any detail on these boats (or a test drive in South of France ). I know some of the boats in the fleet (of 75 boats on the water, 74s and 78s together) so if you are looking at a particular boat ask me about the history. It's worth trying to get a 78 not a 74 if budget will stretch, becuase the swim platform on the 78 is great fun and the tender garage seriously uses up crew/utility space on the 74

List price now on a new Sq78 is £2.5 or 2.6m +VAT I think, and if you want uber high spec you could spend a bit more than that, but there is a new one (hull 73) in stock at Essex Boatyards listed at a bargain £1583k +VAT. It has around £50k of extras (Sat TV, watermaker, hydraulic bimini), so it compares with £2.55-2.65m new. That is a total bargain, and worth considering. It's a new 2011 model, 3 boats newer than mine, 30 delivery hours on the clocks, CAT C32 ACERT engines, and that price is unrepeatable. Worth stretching to if you're in market for that sort of boat

 

[jfm]

Jfm, if you do go over the limit, what certificates do you require, do you know? I'm guessing it depends on country of flagging, country of operation and nationality of skipper.

For example, a British flagged 28m boat with a British skipper based in SoF...

I'm not sure wiggo. There was a thread on this recently, maybe 3 months ago. The conlusion might have been that your example is ok with no licence, if the boat is used only privately. But this needs to be checked and I didn't have the time to wade through the law the last time. The law isn't easy: it's spread across several statutory instruments

But reference my post above, I think i forgot the 96% factor. If you apply the guesswork in my post, the hull is 26.6, then you knock off 1.5m-1.8m at the stem becuase you're measuring along a waterline that is 85% of the way up from the keel to the transom gate openings. That's say 25.0m. THEN you multiply by .96, which I forgot to do, and that gets you to 24. Hey presto. Now, when you're that close, you can be pretty sure the shipyard have made sure it is 23.99. No shipyard in its right mind would build a boat 24.1 or 24.2. So I'm feeling much more hopeful that Balearick's Couach is indeed <24m LLL. Seems to stand to reason to me

So go for it Balearick!

 

[MrB]

I found this www.dft.gov.uk/mca/msn_1792_edition_2.pdf really informative when i was looking at how many crew were required and licencing requirements for yachts over 24m. I think it is mainly commercial stuff but does reference "Yachts for pleasure only".

 

[Balearick]

But reference my post above, I think i forgot the 96% factor. If you apply the guesswork in my post, the hull is 26.6, then you knock off 1.5m-1.8m at the stem becuase you're measuring along a waterline that is 85% of the way up from the keel to the transom gate openings. That's say 25.0m. THEN you multiply by .96, which I forgot to do, and that gets you to 24. Hey presto. Now, when you're that close, you can be pretty sure the shipyard have made sure it is 23.99. No shipyard in its right mind would build a boat 24.1 or 24.2. So I'm feeling much more hopeful that Balearick's Couach is indeed <24m LLL. Seems to stand to reason to me

So go for it Balearick!

Heh! If only I could move quick enough to bag her today, but this is one I have to take slowly and carefully. I'll be in Antibes from October and must use the next couple of weeks to get my ducks lined up (swmbo, who already refuses to handle the slime line on my 45, being one of them). This Couach has 1100 hours on the engines so I'm expecting she'll be needing some work.

Meantime I've found more info on the ICC limit, quite a lot of conflicting stuff on various sites, but this from RYA backs up exactly what you've said about LLL:
http://www.rya.org.uk/infoadvice/boatingabroad/icc/Pages/icc.aspx
"80 GT and 24m (load line) length"

http://dba-the-barge-association.222578.n4.nabble.com/Fw-ICC-maximum-length-td240381.html
(quote) "the ICC is valid for any vessel which does not
exceed 24m Load Line length (LLL) (which is the loaded waterline length) AND
80 Gross Registered tonnage (GT). The key word appears to be the AND, as it
seems that an ICC is valid for a vessel of over 24m LLL provided it is under
80 GT. This ties up with the statement on the ICC document that it is valid
for up to 24m or 80 GT."

 

[Wiggo]

Not wishing to rain on your parade, but that info is confusing.

The Gross Tonnage is calculated on volume (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gross_tonnage)

If you use a really simple model of a 24m hull then it is made up of half a cylinder, 6m in diameter and 16m long (the bulk of the hull) with half an 8m cone on the front. Add to that a 1m thick triangular wedge at the front (above the half cone) and a rectangular slab 16m x 6m x 1m high to represent the rest of the superstructure. That comes out to a volume of 610 cubic metres.

Applying the formula from Wikipedia, V=610 and K=0.255, so the Gross Tonnage for a rather crudely modelled 24 m boat is approximately 156 tonnes.

 

[Doug_Stormforce]

YM Coastal and Offshore is the same 24m/200grt limit, I think...

While Yachtmaster Offshore and Ocean cover you up to 200 tonne the Yachtmaster Coastal does not. A YM Coastal covers you up to 24m.

If the OP wants to skipper a leisure boat over 24m LLL then Yachtmaster Offshore or above is required.

IMHO the raft of other legislation and warrenty checks that applies once you get into yachts this size takes the fun out of leisure boating and requires a full time Captain on board.

Staying beneath 80 tonne and 24m has many advantages.

 

[Nick_H]

Balearick

None of my business, but your shortlist is unusual to say the least. There's a world of difference between a 28m hardtop with surface drives and a 22m flybridge with shafts, and they would normally be bought by different types of buyers wanting different things from their boating. If the Coauch is the type of boat you really want, but you miss out on the one you're looking at, then why not look for a similar boat like a Leopard, Mangusta, etc, or even a SS Predator?

 

[henryf]

Wow. What a timely and helpful thread. Totally changed my plans for the boat show and saved me a lot of paperwork.

I'm going to sit down and have a bit of a re-think now













Henry

 

[Wiggo]

Aha! Found it at last. The following is from the RYA website:

The standard commercial endorsement allows you work on board British flagged vessels subject to the MCA's codes of practice for small commercial vessels. The following wording would appear on your certificate:

For Yachtmaster Offshore and Yachtmaster Ocean Certificates of Competence: This certificate is valid for use as a Master of yachts of up to 200gt on commercially and privately registered yachts until (date of expiry).
For Powerboat Level 2, Powerboat Advanced, Day Skipper and Yachtmaster Coastal Certificates of Competence: Valid for vessels of up to 24 metres in length used for commercial purposes subject to the codes of practice issued by the MCA until (date of expiry).

These only relate to the commercial endorsements, which implies that there is no limit for private pleasure use, but that's UK regulations only. The regular (non-commercial) YM Coastal and Offshore exams just get you an RYA certificate with no mention of restrictions. The ICC merely states that you have reached a minimum standard of competence as recognised by the RYA, but it is up to the other country as to whether they choose to recognise it.

So if you are over 24m and British flagged, I guess to avoid the possibility of falling foul of local laws you would need a commercial endorsement on a YM Offshore. And that only covers you to 200gt - anything over 200gt and you are into MCA Officer of the Watch, Chief Mate or Master quals.

 

[tinkicker0]

For Powerboat Level 2, Powerboat Advanced, Day Skipper and Yachtmaster Coastal Certificates of Competence: Valid for vessels of up to 24 metres in length used for commercial purposes subject to the codes of practice issued by the MCA until (date of expiry).

Interesting thread. Smallish drift though :

Thought RYA PB2 and the accompanying ICC obtained from it only covered up to 10m? I'm sure that's what it states on mine, although not had it out of the drawer for many a moon.