ICC for caostal waters?

[timbartlett]

Only because they think the message is a total fabrication

Try www.unece.org/trans/doc/finaldocs/sc3/ECE-TRANS-SC3-115r3e.pdf
Articles 1.02, 1.03, and 1.10 for starters.

using woolly language to scam a few quid.

As has already been pointed out: FROM the RYA web Site: In very general terms an ICC is required for the inland waterways of Europe and for inland and coastal waters of Mediterranean countries. For the coastal waters of Northern Europe the ICC is generally not required ...nothing very woolly there.

Of course that might be wrong - in which case just post a bit of evidence and I'm sure people will be happy to buy ICCs every five years.

Try smee's post, and windlass 100 -- first hand knowledge and official documents. Or are they all part of the great conspiracy, too?

Just because you or anyone else has popped across the channel a few times without being asked for a document that isn't required in that particular context is hardly a sound basis for dismissing it as a scam.
That would be like a foreign visitor coming to the UK for a couple of days and going home and telling his friends "you don't need a driving licence in England -- I've been there, and I rented a bicycle, and I didn't get asked for it once!"

 

[BrianH]

I think so. I don't have an ICC and I haven't had the slightest problem. [....]
Specifically what does 'falling foul' mean? Imprisonment? Fines? Let's see some verifiable examples of 'falling foul'.

While clearing out of Croatia in Umag in 2005, I personally witnessed the frustration and eventual humiliation of a Brit in the harbour master's office. He had no document of competence and was being refused entry.

Admittedly I do not know the outcome as, after helping with translation because the unpleasant official behind the counter had only Italian and German other than his native Croat, I was not impressed by the skipper's equally unpleasant belligerence, which was getting him nowhere, and so I left the office.

Enough "falling foul" for you?

 

[Doghousekeeper]

Straw Man Fallacy.

What is not in any doubt is that the ICC exists, and it exists to satisfy a requirement laid down by governments.

The application of it varies from place to place - also a matter of fact - either by the requirements of local or national laws or by commercial interest. I would add that there is a measure of whim involved too ... some officials can be very rigorous in their attention to detail, others are pretty relaxed.

I love Tim B's latest post. The bike analogy is a good one.

I have been asked to show my qualifications in France, Portugal, Spain, Italy, Croatia, and Greece. I hand over my ICC rather than a certificate written only in English, because I expect it's easier for them to understand it. I've never had a problem with it.

The list of countries where I have not been asked to produce qualifications is much longer - and it includes France, Portugal, Spain, Italy, Croatia, and Greece.

My ICC costs nothing as I'm a member of the RYA and it's free to members. I may not always need it, but when I do it smoothes the passage.

It's free. It's easy to get. It helps with foreign officials when needed. It's a no-brainer really.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

While clearing out of Croatia in Umag in 2005, I personally witnessed the frustration and eventual humiliation of a Brit in the harbour master's office. He had no document of competence and was being refused entry.

Admittedly I do not know the outcome as, after helping with translation because the unpleasant official behind the counter had only Italian and German other than his native Croat, I was not impressed by the skipper's equally unpleasant belligerence, which was getting him nowhere, and so I left the office.

Enough "falling foul" for you?

...but you need an ICC in Croatia - this thread is about French Coastal waters.

I don't think any messengers are being shot for saying you need an ICC in the places where you errr, need an ICC. Are you saying otherwise?

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

I have been asked to show my qualifications in France, Portugal, Spain, Italy, Croatia, and Greece.

AFAIK you don't need any qualifications in France or Greece. You do in Croatia. Not sure about the others. Can you demonstrate otherwise? I doubt it.

So it all comes down to what you are claiming the consquences of not showing an ICC in places where it's not required are and then backing that up with some evidence.

 

[BrianH]

...but you need an ICC in Croatia - this thread is about French Coastal waters.
I don't think any messengers are being shot for saying you need an ICC in the places where you errr, need an ICC. Are you saying otherwise?

Point taken, I had erroneously believed we had Fred Drifted to general application. My apologies.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

Try www.unece.org/trans/doc/finaldocs/sc3/ECE-TRANS-SC3-115r3e.pdf
Articles 1.02, 1.03, and 1.10 for starters.As has already been pointed out: FROM the RYA web Site: In very general terms an ICC is required for the inland waterways of Europe and for inland and coastal waters of Mediterranean countries. For the coastal waters of Northern Europe the ICC is generally not required

But NOBODY is shooting the messenger over that message are they? The people who are 'shooting the messenger' are soleing doing so where the messenger starts making up new places where an ICC is required!

Just because you or anyone else has popped across the channel a few times without being asked for a document that isn't required in that particular context is hardly a sound basis for dismissing it as a scam.
That would be like a foreign visitor coming to the UK for a couple of days and going home and telling his friends "you don't need a driving licence in England -- I've been there, and I rented a bicycle, and I didn't get asked for it once!"

All of which would be more meaningful if you hadn't been forced to admit above that "For the coastal waters of Northern Europe the ICC is generally not required"!!!! Again, no messengers are being shot unless the messenger makes stuff up.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

Point taken, I had erroneously believed we had Fred Drifted to general application. My apologies.

No problem at all! Fair winds.

 

[Tranona]

AFAIK you don't need any qualifications in France or Greece. You do in Croatia. Not sure about the others. Can you demonstrate otherwise? I doubt it.

So it all comes down to what you are claiming the consquences of not showing an ICC in places where it's not required are and then backing that up with some evidence.

You are correct about coastal waters in France and the RYA information (as quoted by Tim) has always said this (so I don't know why you claim he has been forced to admit something that has always been there).

You are only partially correct about Greece, although as is often the case the actual situation is complex and the "rules" interpreted in different ways. Greece has not signed up to Resolution 40 so does not formally recognise the ICC nor does it require visitors in non Greek registered boats to have evidence of competence. However it is a requirement that all skippers of Greek registered boats need to be able to demonstrate competence. Unfortunately, it does not (like Croatia) define what it accepts as demonstration of competence. For charter boats the operator has to obtain a permit for each charter from the Port Police who require evidence of competence for the skipper. As there is no specific requirement, officers accept a variety of "documents" - including declarations from the operator printed on bits of card with a John Bull printing block - I know I have a couple in my souvenir box!. An ICC is also accepted (at least by the Port Police in Corfu from my personal experience). For further information and so that you can understand the lack of precision in the "rules" (not just on this issue, but on many others related to operating charter yachts) suggest you spend a couple of happy hours on the Hellenic Professional Yacht Owners Association website.

 

[timbartlett]

this thread is about French Coastal waters.

The very first thread in this post was about "coastal water outside of the UK." There are quite a few places "outside of the UK" besides France!

I don't think any messengers are being shot for saying you need an ICC in the places where you errr, need an ICC. Are you saying otherwise?

Toad, you are the one who wrote "The problem is that the oranization who should be publishing clear and detailed guidence on the topic of foreign law as it applies to yachtsmen is the RYA, yet they have a vested interest in keeping it as unclear as possible so they sell more qualifications.", despite the fact that the advice I quoted has been on their website for yonks.

 

[snowleopard]

It's free. It's easy to get. It helps with foreign officials when needed. It's a no-brainer really.

Yes it's free if you join the RYA. Personally I have never seen any reason apart from that to join the RYA so to me and many if not most others it's £40 for 5 years. I would also question the 'easy to get'. I sent in my YM certificate and got my new ICC back but I didn't get my YM back. That's the 3rd cock-up in a row with my certificates so I'm very reluctant to let them have any valuable documents in future.

 

[Sailfree]

Couple of observations.

1. I think the RYA scheme is a good one and recommend all new sailors take DS and if interested YM (I notice over recent years the DS has got harder and IMHO includes more of the YM content).

2. When the MCA recently tried to require everyone to report any incident many on here went mad and criticised them for mindlessly reproducing EU legislation and requiring it to be obeyed to the letter. It was later sensibly relaxed I think after the representations of the RYA. Yet on here most posters are doing exactly that wanting everything to the letter with requirements of foreign countries written in other languages to be specified by someone to the letter and in English!

3. The EU is heavily regulated and the UK escape a lot of it with vountary quals. but one of those vountary quals does get you the ICC and that is internationally recognised - yet many complain. Isn't it just as easy to get one? I can sypathise with those that have been sailing since being in nappies but again to use the motocycle analogy I recently did a "be a better biker" course with Police instructors and I am humbled by how much I learnt inspite of 45yrs riding experience.

4. On a charter boat in Croatia the charter company issued everyone with a certificate with Photo and logo of RYA attached. The cert had various words like cruising and competent. It did not imitate the ICC or DS or YM but was given to all including inexperienced punters (1 very inexperienced punter radioed that he was drifting after anchoring in over 100m with only 60m of chain/rope and filled up the diesel tank with water - I kid you not!!) and this sham cert was accepted by the Croatia authorities that stopped many of the flotilla boats at various times. So while an ICC may be legally required some have found a way round it!!

5. With hindsight I think it reasonable for all countries to require an ICC however much I hate officialdom!

6. Can someone quickly advice what size of boats/type of boats need a line load certificate or point me to a link please.

7. Have I understood it correctly that Power Boat 2 give you Motor ICC. Is there a length limit on motor ICC (I currently hold IIRC up to 10m Power from my sailing ICC - just wanted to know if this can now be bigger!)

Thanks

PS - To Toad - I think you deserve an Oscar for your ability to wind others up. Are you going to accept my invite to join us on the Scuttlebutt cruise to Cherbourg without an original of you ships registration papers where I promise to ensure a visit by the French Officials so you could use your charm on them? For some strange reason you dropped off that thread after that! Keep winding that key up!

 

[Doghousekeeper]

AFAIK you don't need any qualifications in France or Greece. You do in Croatia. Not sure about the others. Can you demonstrate otherwise? I doubt it.

So it all comes down to what you are claiming the consquences of not showing an ICC in places where it's not required are and then backing that up with some evidence.

Dear Toad,

I realise that you consider it your duty on this forum to wind people up, and usually I don't mind. I do, however, take exception to any suggestion that I might be a liar. I'm sorry I can't prove my history - I'm not the sort to film these occurences on my mobile phone and then post them on You Tube - but my word is good enough for most people.

Before you choose pedantry as your excuse, I didn't claim that you need qualifications there - I said that I had been asked for them there. Since you seem to be reluctant to take my word for it without more information, the Greek occasion was at Kassiopi (Corfu) where I was asked for my tickets when chartering a boat and also by the police when I brought it back.

In France, I was asked by a representative of the Capitainerie at Port Vauban, Antibes. Why, I don't know. I've been a visitor to Antibes many times and never been asked (and wouldn't expect to be asked for all the reasons already aired in this thread). Nonetheless, I was asked and the easiest thing to do is just show the ticket, get a nod from the peaked cap, and enjoy the sun.

I'm happy to do a deal with you Toad. If you agree to apologise for suggesting that I might not be telling the truth, I'll agree not to hunt you down and cause you some damage

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

The very first thread in this post was about "coastal water outside of the UK." There are quite a few places "outside of the UK" besides France!
Toad, you are the one who wrote "The problem is that the oranization who should be publishing clear and detailed guidence on the topic of foreign law as it applies to yachtsmen is the RYA, yet they have a vested interest in keeping it as unclear as possible so they sell more qualifications.", despite the fact that the advice I quoted has been on their website for yonks.

Ok, so who's shooting the messenger?

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

You are only partially correct about Greece

No I'm not partially correct I'm 100 per cent correct. You do not need an ICC to sail in Greece.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

Are you going to accept my invite to join us on the Scuttlebutt cruise to Cherbourg without an original of you ships registration papers where I promise to ensure a visit by the French Officials so you could use your charm on them? For some strange reason you dropped off that thread after that!

Post a link, I could do with a laugh!

 

[Marsupial]

6. Can someone quickly advice what size of boats/type of boats need a line load certificate or point me to a link please.

try this

http://www.mcga.gov.uk/c4mca/mcga07...b_load_line/mcga-gr_gos_loadline-chapter1.htm

I had a quick read - good luck you'll need it.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

AFAIK you don't need any qualifications in France or Greece. You do in Croatia. Not sure about the others. Can you demonstrate otherwise? I doubt it.

So it all comes down to what you are claiming the consquences of not showing an ICC in places where it's not required are and then backing that up with some evidence.

I'm happy to do a deal with you Toad. If you agree to apologise for suggesting that I might not be telling the truth, I'll agree not to hunt you down and cause you some damage

I'm not hitting the report button - just in case someone else does. IYSWIM.

 

[Sailfree]

http://www.mcga.gov.uk/c4mca/mcga07...b_load_line/mcga-gr_gos_loadline-chapter1.htm

I had a quick read - good luck you'll need it.

Thanks I think cl 1.3.2 Ships in commercial use for sport and pleasure (typically yachts) excludes charter coded yachts.

However I an understand your comment as they appear to be a good example of how to write regulations that are difficult to comprehend.

What I fail to understand is he previous post that suggested that a charter yacht was prosecuted for failing to have a load line certificate.

 

[Sailfree]

Post a link, I could do with a laugh!

No link necessary. It will be well publicised on here and ybw usually give us a devoted forum under members events.

I repeat my offer I will pay for your evening meal providing you turn up without your original ships registration papers.

I am sure if I am skint I can hold a whip round as I am sure many will contribute to encourage you to tell the French officials in France exactly what their requirments are and what they can and cannot do to a British Flagged boat in France especially with the charm you regularly display on here.