ICC for caostal waters?

[timbartlett]

(Sorry this was meant for Timbartlett). These are not MY formulae - I'm quoting the law.

I didn't suggest that you had made them up. But it was you that quoted them. And as you didn't tell us the source, there was little option other than to describe them as "yours".
And whilst you might well believe that you are quoting the law:-
(a) you haven't specified which law or told us where to find it
(b) your interpretation of it is quite different from the source quoted by Duncanmac (though I notice that his source was equally unspecific about where the information came from)
(c) the formulae you have are outside the terms set out in the primary legislation

Which brings us full circle: we still don't know where to turn for a definitive statement of the law. And as we don't know exactly where the boundary between legal and illegal lies, it is probably better to stay well on the safe side of it.

 

[duncanmack]

Décret n°2007-1167 du 2 août 2007 relatif au permis de conduire et à la formation à la conduite des bateaux de plaisance à moteur.

Article 1

Au sens du présent décret, on entend :

b) Par "bateau de plaisance à moteur", tout bateau exclusivement motorisé et tout bateau à propulsion vélique dont le rapport entre la surface de voilure exprimée en mètres carrés et la masse exprimée en kilogrammes est inférieur à un coefficient fixé par un arrêté des ministres chargés de la mer et des transports ;

Tim,

I've found the "Decret" you quoted earlier. I have failed so far to track down the origin of the formula(e) - I keep getting referred to the fiscal consequences of engines.
On your point that "the Ministry has overstepped the limits of its authority by devising a ratio that does not meet the criteria laid down in law" I have respectfully to disagree. Formula a) does lay down a relationship between sail area and mass.

I'll track down the "official" origin of the formulae eventually. It may be when I am next in France...

 

[bendyone]

Fron the RYA European waterways reg book

 

[Channel Ribs]

I suspect this thread has moved past a simple answer, but here is an attempt:

"The requirement for a certificate of competence varies from country to country. Sometimes they are required for coastal waters, sometimes for inland waters, sometimes for neither and sometimes for both. As the skipper of a vessel, you must ensure that you are aware of any requirement for qualifications before venturing into another country's jurisdiction.

Although only guaranteed to be accepted in countries that have adopted the relevant UN Resolution, the ICC is a useful document to carry and will generally be accepted where proof of competence is required, presuming you are skippering a UK flagged boat on a short visit abroad."

From: http://www.rya.org.uk/infoadvice/boatingabroad/icc/Pages/default.aspx

So is an ICC required for coastal waters? Yes, some countries do require proof of training and the ICC is the most widely accepted form of proof.

 

[timbartlett]

Formula a) does lay down a relationship between sail area and mass.

Im sorry, but it does not. It lays down a relationship between sail area and mass and length. The decret did not give the Ministry the authority to add extra criteria. The insertion of length fundamentally changes the effect of the rule.
Consider two boats, both with a displacement of 4 tons and a sail area of 40sqm. One is 8m long, one is 12m long
According to the rule specified by the decret, the ratio would be the same for both boats.
According to the R = S / square root of L X D rule
for the long boat R= 40/6.93 = 5.77
for the short boat R= 40/5.65 = 7.08

So the unspecified rule penalises length whereas the decret did not consider length.

I'll track down the "official" origin of the formulae eventually. It may be when I am next in France...

That would be useful

 

[Roger the Cabin Boy]

This is a perfect (?) example of the ambiguities of the requirements in this area. You need a DEKPA if your boat is over 10 metres. To get it you need the registration document and a declaration of dimensions including tonnage as the payment is related to that. You need to declare who the owner is (from the registration document) but you can also add additional skippers if they are with you at the time -eg husband and wife or if you want to lend the boat to a friend. There is no formal requirement for an ICC, but presenting one avoids them asking for it! When I got mine in Mourtos they dismissed it as irrelevant!

The whole process is applied with varying degrees of rigour - as Vyvcox says above. Mourtos, Preveza and Fiskardo and sometimes Gaios have bored Port Police who sometimes enjoy putting you through the hoops, but other timers are too bored to move from their office!

As I have recounted elsewhere, when demonstration of competence is required such as getting a charter permit, I have got it with a simple piece of paper from the charter operator, been asked for an ICC and on one occasion required to present myself personally to the Port Police office in Corfu town rather than the usual leaving the papers in the marina office and picking them up an hour later.

So, go with the flow and have a wonderful time in Greece!

We're chartering in Greece for the first time this summer. Talking to the charter firm at The London Boat Show, they said the Greek authorities are being a lot tighter this year than they have been in the past and that ICC is the minimum requirement for anyone looking to charter out there. It may well be just a Greek registered vessel ruling, but from the sounds of things it is having an affect on the charter firms, who by & large have been fairly relaxed about qualifications up to now.

 

[Tranona]

We're chartering in Greece for the first time this summer. Talking to the charter firm at The London Boat Show, they said the Greek authorities are being a lot tighter this year than they have been in the past and that ICC is the minimum requirement for anyone looking to charter out there. It may well be just a Greek registered vessel ruling, but from the sounds of things it is having an affect on the charter firms, who by & large have been fairly relaxed about qualifications up to now.

The vast majority of charter boats are Greek registered, simply because it is too much hassle to get the charter licence for a non Greek boat even though permitted in law. It is my experience that the Port Police have become more strict, but still very variable! It also depends on how your charter operator maintains his relationship with the authorities.

Enjoy your holiday - we have spent the last 12 years in Corfu on short breaks and loved evry minute of it.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

Talking to the charter firm at The London Boat Show, they said the Greek authorities are being a lot tighter this year than they have been in the past and that ICC is the minimum requirement for anyone looking to charter out there.

Just out of interest which firms said that?

Of course the websites may be out of date but I had a 5 minute look round Levkas firms:

Nisos imply it's just the Levkas area:

http://www.nisosyachtcharter.com/the-news.html

Qualifications Required UPDATE
From May 2010, we will require each boat going out on either bareboat charter or Assisted Bareboat Charter to have at least one person on board with an International Certificate of Competence ("ICC") or an RYA Day Skipper (or above) practical and theory qualification.

[snip]

This is in order to comply with the laws applied in Greek waters which are tightening up this winter in the Lefkas area.

Rowan Carver


Neilson need no quals:

http://www.neilson.co.uk/Yacht-Dull-but-Essential.aspx

BAREBOAT
We require two persons aged 18 or over aboard each boat to have plenty of sailing experience, having been in charge of a sailing vessel for several cruises, possible on previous flotilla holidays. They must be both comfortable sailing in a range of conditions. If this level of experience can not be satisfied, a Flotilla holiday may be more appropriate.
Required experience Level (Y3)

FLOTILLA
We require two persons aged 18 or over aboard each boat to have several days' active experience in charge of a yacht. This experience may have been on a previous holiday , though both sailors should have had time in charge. Id this level of experience cannot be satisfied, a Stay and Sail holiday, coupled with a training course in week one, may be more appropriate.
Required experience level (Y2)

Sail Ionian need no quals:

http://www.sailionian.com/Bareboat-charter.php

Ideally most charter companies like charterers to have sailing qualifications to at least RYA Day Skipper level, have an ICC or have adequate experience to handle the size of yacht chartered. In Greece there are no set qualifications required for bareboat sailing unlike most of the world! At Sail Ionian we will be pleased to advise on the suitability of your qualifications and experience. If necessary we can provide training with stern too mooring or for the first one or two days.

 

[Tranona]

Well, Toad,

All your "research" shows is exactly what I have been telling you for ages. There is ambiguity in the way the Greek regulations are worded and variability in the way they are applied in different locations.

Also exactly the same as the advice that comes from the RYA.

I am not sure what additional information you are providing here!

So, the advice is to play safe and have an ICC. Pity to spoil a holiday by not being able to get your charter permit when you get there if you experience the Port Police on a bad hair day.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

Well, Toad,

All your "research" shows is exactly what I have been telling you for ages. There is ambiguity in the way the Greek regulations are worded and variability in the way they are applied in different locations.

Also exactly the same as the advice that comes from the RYA.

I am not sure what additional information you are providing here!

So, the advice is to play safe and have an ICC. Pity to spoil a holiday by not being able to get your charter permit when you get there if you experience the Port Police on a bad hair day.

No Tranona, what you have been telling people for ages (two years?) is that you are aware of a specific fixed penalty in France for a British Yacht in French Waters with no original SSR. That's not ambiguous, a fixed penalty is very specific, there's no room for interpretation in a fixed penalty.

You claimed your source was the RYA & you carried it to the ludicrous lengths of actually sending me on a 60 mile wild goose chase on a winters night to get an RYA magazine you claimed identified this fixed penalty. You even turned down £100 to the RYA for identifying this fixed penalty.

You kept up this pointless pretence until you realized I was going to meet with the RYA at which point at which point you confessed your real "evidence" which was a reference in an unnamed 2002 yachting mag and the fact that you feel there are enough examples quoted from reliable personal observations to suggest there is a pretty good chance it does exist.. Hardly the same as knowing the fixed penalty exists for a fact and being able to identify it. (http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=225996)

Now the SSR fixed penalty has been put to bed you've given up on any pretence of reasoned debate and are just resorting to aimless abuse aimed at me personally rather than aimed at establishing any facts of any kind - indeed most of your posts over the last 2 years have been little more than abuse with absolutely zero attempt at revealing your evidence which could have been stated in about three lines if you'd chosen to do so.

As far as I know apart from one time when you claimed ICC was required to sail in Greece, I don't recall disputing Greek legislation with you. The sole issue has from day one been the fixed penalty for lack of original SSR on a British boat in France.

No doubt you will continue to stalk me with your abuse but I really don't care. I've got the one bit of information I ever required of you which was your source for the French-SSR-Fixed-Penalty thing.

In fact you won't continue to stalk me because you're going on ignore for a few weeks.

 

[duncanmack]

The insertion of length fundamentally changes the effect of the rule.

Consider two boats, both with a displacement of 4 tons and a sail area
of 40sqm. One is 8m long, one is 12m long
According to the rule specified by the decret, the ratio would be the same for both boats.
According to the R = S / square root of L X D rule
for the long boat R= 40/6.93 = 5.77
for the short boat R= 40/5.65 = 7.08

So the unspecified rule penalises length whereas the decret did not consider length.

Tim,
I can see where you're coming from, BUT both boats in your example are, by being over the ratio of 5.5, sailing boats.

Can't wait to track this down.

 

[timbartlett]

Tim,
I can see where you're coming from, BUT both boats in your example are, by being over the ratio of 5.5, sailing boats.

Can't wait to track this down.

True. So now let's consider two more boats, very similar to the first ones, in that they are both 4 tons but one is 8m and the other is 12m, except that these only have 37.5sqm of sail

 

[Tranona]

No Tranona, what you have been telling people for ages (two years?) is that you are aware of a specific fixed penalty in France for a British Yacht in French Waters with no original ICC. That's not ambiguous, a fixed penalty is very specific, there's no room for interpretation in a fixed penalty.

You claimed your source was the RYA & you carried it to the ludicrous lengths of actually sending me on a 60 mile wild goose chase on a winters night to get an RYA magazine you claimed identified this fixed penalty. You even turned down £100 to the RYA for identifying this fixed penalty.

You kept up this pointless pretence until you realized I was going to meet with the RYA at which point at which point you confessed your real "evidence" which was a reference in an unnamed 2002 yachting mag and the fact that you feel there are enough examples quoted from reliable personal observations to suggest there is a pretty good chance it does exist.. Hardly the same as knowing the fixed penalty exists for a fact and being able to identify it. (http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=225996)

Now the SSR fixed penalty has been put to bed you've given up on any pretence of reasoned debate and are just resorting to aimless abuse aimed at me personally rather than aimed at establishing any facts of any kind - indeed most of your posts over the last 2 years have been little more than abuse with absolutely zero attempt at revealing your evidence which could have been stated in about three lines if you'd chosen to do so.

As far as I know apart from one time when you claimed ICC was required to sail in Greece, I don't recall disputing Greek legislation with you. The sole issue has from day one been the fixed penalty for lack of original SSR on a British boat in France.

No doubt you will continue to stalk me with your abuse but I really don't care. I've got the one bit of information I ever required of you which was your source for the French-SSR-Fixed-Penalty thing.

In fact you won't continue to stalk me because you're going on ignore for a few weeks.

Now I am convinced you have dyslexia or you do not read what other people write.

This thread is about ICC and the post is about Greece.

So why are you raising issues to do with SSR in France? You seemed to be so obsessed with the subject that you seem to ignore everything else.

So look at my response to your quoites about charter companies/IICC/Greece and you will find that my observations are correct.

 

[bendyone]

Tomorrow's the day, looks as if it might be a bit wet and windy,
Doing it with Torquay Sailing School in their Bavaria 38. Hope the keel doesn't drop off

 

[doug748]

Tomorrow's the day, looks as if it might be a bit wet and windy,
Doing it with Torquay Sailing School in their Bavaria 38. Hope the keel doesn't drop off

Do give us a run down of how you get on.....

 

[bendyone]

Well done it now so can sleep easy at night. Travelled down early on Saturday to meet the guy together with my brother and a friend Mike.
Bit windy and with a light drizzle we went to Brixham to joint the boat. ( luckily the keel was still attached ) so after a safety briefing set off into the bay.

Sailed around for a bit and then each did the man overboard bit. Then had a play around trying different methods of MOB, learnt a bit here on the latest "approved" method. Then had a good sail out to see the tankers and tugs which are anchored in the bay.

Then back to the marina for the CEVNI test.

All in all a good day out with the advantage of having passed the ICC and can happily motor into the French inland waterways legally.

Can highly recommend Torbay Sailing School. Very professional service and not too expensive, We did the test only without having to do the course first.

 

[jimbaerselman]

Certificates . . .

Some interesting points have arisen in this thread. I'll pick some random ones which point out legislation traps which have been reported and checked by the Cruising Association, which is pretty hot on this stuff. Quoting Vyv Cox earlier:

------------------------------
I believe a post here some time ago described the experience of a forumite's son at Mourthos. His boat was less than 10 metres in length, so did not require a transit log. He was told by an official to go to the harbour office to pay, where of course he could not produce his transit log. The official confiscated his and his crew's passports, declaring that he would send them to Athens(?) for 'checking'. This would take four days. In the end the skipper paid a substantial fine in order to be able to continue his trip. Serves as an example of someone being perfectly within the law but suffering from officialdom.
------------------------------

The facts quoted are correct, but miss one important point. With no DEKRA, an owner listed on the registration certificate must be on board when a vessel is used. That was the reason for the fine. It therefore pays to have a DEKRA even if you are below 10m if you wish to appoint someone else to be a skipper (the son, in this case).

=====================

Certificates of competence (note, not necessarily ICC) are required (as Tranona has pointed out) in many European countries, and in various situations. They are only rarely inspected.

'Certificates', because many non-European sailors (USA, Oz? S African and many others) have no means of obtaining ICC, and anyway, although commonly accepted, ICC is not yet ratified universally.

'Certificates' are required in Greece if you are chartering any flag of vessel within Greece. The authorities accept certificates issued by some charter companies, depending on their knowledge of the company and its track record. So requirements will depend on the company.

===================================

Proof of competence is commonly required after any boating incident in many countries. If you do not have a certificate, you will often not be permitted to sail your boat until you have demonstrated competence to a local examiner, who will need to be paid. This can take time to arrange. This is the most common 'consequence' of not having a certificate.

===================================

So, there are few generalities in the world of leisure yachting (unlike commercial or large vessels subject to international law).

All of this is well documented on the Cruising Association web site, under the 'Cruising Info' tab (www.cruising.org.uk), although pages with this sort of detail are only visible to members.

 

[duncanmack]

The elusive famous formula.....

I said I'd have a bash at tracking it down, and EUREKA!

I had a chat with a very nice man in the Bureau des Affaires Maritime in Auray last week and he pointed me at this...

Voilier motorisé

Navires à voile : sont considérés comme voiliers les navires dont la propulsion principale est vélique, à condition que
As >= 0,07(m LDC)2/3

m LDC étant la masse du navire en condition de charge, exprimée en kilogrammes,

As, exprimée en mètres carrés, étant la surface de voilure projetée, calculée comme la somme des surfaces projetées en profil de toutes les voiles qui peuvent être établies lorsque le navire navigue au près, sur des bômes, cornes, bouts-dehors, queues de malet ou autres espars, et de la surface du ou des triangles avant, jusqu’à l’étai le plus avancé, fixé de manière permanente pendant le fonctionnement du bateau au mât portant les voiles établies, sans recouvrement, en supposant que les drailles et les chutes sont des lignes droites. La surface du triangle avant de chaque mât doit être celle donnée par IJ/2, où I et J sont les mesurages entre la face avant du mât, l’extrémité arrière de l’étai et la ligne de livet au droit du mât. La surface des espars n’est pas incluse dans le calcul de la surface de voilure projetée, à l’exception des mâts-ailes.

http://www.loisirs-nautic.fr/voile_permis.php which gives links to the original legislation

 

[Angele]

I said I'd have a bash at tracking it down, and EUREKA!

As >= 0,07(m LDC)2/3

Duncanmack

Can you clarify two things?

Firstly, is this in addition to the other two equations mentioned earlier (or in substitution for one or both of them)? Or do we have three formulae now?

Secondly, can you clarify the equation? Is it 0.07 x (mass in kg) to the power of 2/3rds? Can't be times two divided by three or else we would all be sailing motor boats!

Edit: Sorry. Just followed the link and it is as I thought. So, just Q1 remains.

 

[duncanmack]

Angele

This is the new formula. It was explained to me that this replaces all the old ones.