ICC + CEVNI

[cmckesson]

Hello. On another thread (Baltic Cruising) I saw these two items mentioned.

What are they, and how would an American go about getting them?

OK - I'll admit I do know what the ICC is, but I don't know how to get one. And I don't know what a CEVNI is.

Much thanks!

Chris McKesson
ahead planning for a 2007 UK cruise.

 

[Solitaire]

Chris - the ICC is available to British citizens or bone fide British residents. If you hold recognised RYA qualification - Powerboat Level 2, Day Skipper (Practical)Coastal Skipper (Practical) or Yactmaster (Practical)then you send a copy of the appropriate certificate to the RYA and an ICC will be issued for free if a member of RYA or a fee of £34. An ICC can also be gained via direct test or an assessment.

The CEVNI test is for using a boat on inland waters in Europe. Comprises of 14 questions about bouyage and signals. Both ICC assessment and CEVNI can be obtained via an RYA recognised training establishment.

 

[wooslehunter]

You can also get one with a dinghy RYA level 5 + Powerboat Level 2.

Powerboat Level 2 on it's own will only get the ICC Power and not Sail.

 

[Solitaire]

Er, yes I know all that - like DS, CS and YM Power will only gain you power ICC as well. But from 2005 Day Skipper Sail and above will also qualify for ICC power up to 10 metres.

Just so there is no misunderstanding an ICC will also be issued - <ul type="square"> Helmsman's Course Completion Certificate Power
MCA Deck Officer C 0f E (any grade)
RN, Army or RAF Bridge Watchkeeping Certificate
MCA or Local Authoritity Boatman's Licence
MCA Boatmasters Certificate
RA Dinghy Instructor adn National Powerboat Level 2 or higher [/list]

 

[npf1]

There's a full list on the back of the ICC form which can be downloaded from the RYA website.

 

[Anonymous]

Chris, you've had your question answered but could I ask "why would an American want to get an ICC"? If you are resident in the US presumably you have US qualifications which are (hopefully) recognised over here? If you are resident over here, I can't see why you can't get an ICC; I did not need to show any evidence of my citizenship, nationality or even country of residence to get mine. I probably did have to show some form of ID but not a passport, I am fairly sure!

David

 

[cmckesson]

Thank you Lemain - good question.

I am resident in the USA. In 07 we plan an extended cruise involving several years in europe including the UK.

Of course, I would hate to arrive, having sailed a few miles of north atlantic, only to hear "sorry mate, you don't have the right credentials to sail in our waters. You need to turn 'round and go home." (<tongue firmly in cheek!>) So I thought I would learn what sort of credential y'all are required to have.

The problem is that in the US there are no 'official' or required credentials.

My 'unofficial' credentials consist of a course in the US Power Squadron, thirty years' membership in the San Diego Yacht Club, and (by then) of course the feat of having arrived.

Chris

 

[Sea Devil]

For an extended cruise in Europe you need no qulifications what so ever unless you go into the french canal system - there all nationalities need this blasted ICC - CEVNI - damn french... going to cost you $300 upwards to get it but if you are going to do one canal transit you could just buy the river licence for the boat ( pretty cheap depending on how long you spend in the canals) and chance it - quite a lot do.........

If you are thinking of several years in European waters you need to consider the problem that unless you pay the VAT on your boat you its entry into Europe will be limited by a rule that states you only have one year before the vessel becomes due for tax - this is true of many countries through out the world - I may have the one year figure a bit out - could be 18 months but you do need to check that out or it becomes unexpetedly expensive.....

 

[john_morris_uk]

Presumably after a year in European waters, people visit the Channel Islands and start another year of yachting without being asked for tax? Or is it enough to move from one country to another?

I have heard that you can't just hope you haven't been noticed and hope for the best. For instance, I am sure I remember reading about a boat arriving in Spain unannounced and seemingly unnoticed but after the relevant time, the tax people arrived - and knew the exact time and date of its arrival.

Or is this a myth put about by the tax collectors?

 

[snowleopard]

you may also be interested in a thread from chesapklady on the liveaboard forum.

re. solitaire's answer, he is correct but don't read it as only available to UK residents. there are of course routes to it for other nationalities.

 

[Anonymous]

As others have said, you don't actually require formal qualifications by law to sail in tidal waters in Europe but for the inland waterways of continental Europe including NL, F, D, you do require CEVNI.

However, nationals of all(?) EU countries except the UK are required to have qualifications before they go to sea or drive motorboats (which includes outboards). What worried me - and is the reason I bothered to get an ICC - is what would happen after an accident. Imagine that you have been involved in an accident - maybe someone has been hurt - and the local authorities are investigating. Naturally the first things they would expect to see would be your ship's papers, insurance, crew qualifications, logs, etc. I suspect that the local police in, say, France, Spain, Portugal, Italy, Greece, North Africa, would be as surprised to find that you have no formal qualifications as a traffic policeman would be to find that you are driving a car without any sort of license. The lack of any recognised or official-looking permit to operate the boat might make the difference between a spell in the cells and freedom, in extremis. in any case, the lack of formal qualifications might prejudice one's position in a trial.

Similarly, if one doesn't have the correct licensing for the ship's radio (i.e. to comply with the requirements of the flag nation) then in the case of an investigation or trial following an incident one might be give a severe fine or other penalty. It's the same in motoring cases - if they are going to throw the book at you they throw everything they can.

Perhaps your own boating and yachting associations or your own yacht club have some sort of documentation for this reason alone? As I said, to a great extent that is what the ICC is 'about' for the British. I think that you are wise to address this before sailing over because it will be much easier from home knowing the system and having access to phone, fax, etc. If there is really nothing whatsoever that a US citizen can obtain to show that they are 'qualified' to go to sea then maybe a letter to that effect from your yacht club, with translations into the languages of countries you intend to visit, would suffice, though far from ideal.

 

[Birdseye]

Most EU countries require that their citizens have a boating license, but the UK does not. Now we are supposed to have mutual recognition of qualifications (ie the French accept Dutch qualifications etc) but there was some difficulty in practise when UK citizens (who dont have to have any license) went to the other bits of our Euro superstate. So the ICC was devised as a way round this, and also a way for the RYA to make some money. You need to check with them whether you as a Yank can get this piece of paper. At one time it was avaliable on demand. They now take it a little more seriously but it is very basic indeed.

CEVNI is different because the various countries are allowed to insist of qualifications for anyone entering their internal waterways. CEVNI is an attempt to standardise. Its a simple test about signs, signals, which side to drive on etc. Couple hours study of the rules. However, only the countries concerned can say how it applies to a non EC citizen. And it does apply to many more than just France

Be careful of the VAT issue. This is a 17.5% tax applied to almost everything in the UK (similar rates elsewhere|) and it applies to your boat if it is decided you have imported it. I think that the rule is 6 months stay, but I am not sure. You would have to leave the EU and visit one of the offshore islands not part of the EU and then re- enter. Authorities in different countries would regard this differently.

Would they know? In France, marinas report your arrival to the Douane, Gendamerie etc by computer as you check in. In the UK they are ,much less well organised.

 

[mikewilkes]

[ QUOTE ]
Be careful of the VAT issue. This is a 17.5% tax applied to almost everything in the UK (similar rates elsewhere|) and it applies to your boat if it is decided you have imported it. I think that the rule is 6 months stay, but I am not sure. You would have to leave the EU and visit one of the offshore islands not part of the EU and then re- enter. Authorities in different countries would regard this differently.

[/ QUOTE ]

There seems to a "Bond" time in Spain. You put your boat in "bond" but you can still liveaboard. Get quite a few colonials in Port Vell doing that.

 

[Birdseye]

I think the situation in Spain is further complicated because they have a wealth tax and it applies to people they regard as resident. So you can get taxed if you park your boat in one location and live aboard for 6 months (I think).

But its a fair illustration of why our American friend needs to check up country by country and with the authorities. The EU is a long way from having the sort of standardised rules that the US has

 

[Anonymous]

They now take it a little more seriously but it is very basic indeed.

In what sense is it 'basic'? The ICC examination lasts for four or five hours on your own boat one-to-one with the examiner. I wouldn't call that basic - indeed it goes way beyond Day Skipper. It is also the only internationally-recognised yachting qualification that the UK has. DS, and YM have no international significance other than to those in the know. The exam I took was similar to the Yachtmaster syllabus and was both practice and theory, albeit without a written paper. But why should a written paper matter?

 

[Gunfleet]

<<However, nationals of all(?) EU countries except the UK are required to have qualifications before they go to sea or drive motorboats>>
Nothing is simple. The French permis de mer system applies to the horse power of the vessel, in other words many sailors don't need one. Of course their boats are classified as able to travel certain distances from a port according to the sort of safety equipment carried. If you want to work it out for yourself, a vessel is considered a sailing boat when S/root(LD)>5.5 and Px1.36/D>9, where S is overall surface of sails in metres squared, L= length overall in metres, D=displacement in tonnes and P=power in kilowatts. This is from the Cours des Glenans. They must be doing a lot of computations up and down the coastline of France. I agree with you, possession of a simple ICC gets rid of a lot of possible complications - everyone can understand it.

 

[duncan]

I would agree.
Equally it was the original 'availablity' of the licence that caused the problems (quite rightly I believe) shortly after it was introduced - you could get one if the secretary of the yacht club signed to say you were competent - but it seems to do a pretty good job re basic boat handling, including that all important marina stuff!, and a bit more too.
I felt I learnt more doing the thing as 26 evenings of the DS theory which, whilst sort of fun, taught me little of use.

 

[Anonymous]

[quote...Nothing is simple. The French permis de mer system applies to ..... I agree with you, possession of a simple ICC gets rid of a lot of possible complications - everyone can understand it.

[/ QUOTE ]Indeed, my reply was to an American who wants to decide what, if any, quals he ought to get before sailing over here rather than an attempt to define the licensing requirements for nationals across the EU. The ICC is the only qualification available to a British national that has international recognition. I don't know whether a US citizen can get one but, as I said in an earlier post, I don't remember being asked if I was a British Citizen - but they might have and my ICC isn't to hand at the moment so I can't check.

David

 

[npf1]

BTW - you can stay in EU waters for 18 months, not 6 or 12 as suggested above. Go to the UK Customs & Excise website and download Notice 8 and Notice 10(???) to familiarise yourself with the requirements. It's now much harder to restart the clock by visiting a non EU country, but it is still possible.

Also note that the VAT rules are not entirely consistent across all EU countries. Some are rigid in their application to cruising boats and others tend to pay less attention, so it is a topic that you need to be familiar with. Also worth remembering is NEVER to p**s off a VAT inspector cos they have have widespread powers!!!

 

[boatmike]

The CEVNI is only required for inland waterways (canals)