ICC By Assessment?

[Tranona]

Well maybe, but if so a) It's never happened, b) It's impossible to predict what those requirements might be so impossible to pre-empt them.

The rules are that vessels follow the rules of their flag state. Anything else would be completely unworkable.

Apparently some governments have applied rules over and above the rules of the flag state (Ireland, lifejackets?) but that's not a local official making up rules. Doubt there has ever been a prosecution either.

That is simply not true. Most states rely on "comity" - that is they respect the laws of the state of registration of the boat, although they have the right to apply local laws. Very few do, and then only in limited situations - Portugal with respect to safety equipment on foreign registered boats considered "resident" in Portugal, New Zealand similar. It would indeed be unworkable if all states applied local laws to visitors.

The whole point of the ICC was to provide a universally accepted "skippers licence". Local state laws are much wider than just a licence and there is no attempt to establish an international standard for equipment, safety standards or levels of licencing and operation for leisure boats.

 

[ylop]

He won't know until the situation arises when he needs to demonstrate his competence. For example if he is involved in an incident where there is damage or injury and he has to call the coastguard he mat well find that his ICC is his saviour. It is clear that the "official" position in any state does not preclude local officials from setting their own requirements - for example if you call the coastguard in Greece they will impound your boat and require you to have evidence of competence - plus not release your boat until it passes their survey.

So "need" is a slippery word in this context

On the same basis they could insist he has a commercially endorsed yachtmaster! It’s a straightforward question whether the law in his intended cruising ground requires him to have an ICC (and or other qualifications). If they do - they do. If they don’t but some local officials may believe they do, then it may still be convenient or handy to have. Jesus, I was merely questioning if the need was definitely real, for someone who perceived getting the certificate as an inconvenience. No idea how innocent passage became the issue.

Eg Croatia do require proof of competence - but not necessarily an ICC and despite being an ICC signatory have applied a displacement rather than length based distinction which may mean his existing 10m power ICC is fine: https://mmpi.gov.hr/UserDocsImages/...CE MoU HR-EN 21-3_24/TBL- MoU ENG 21-3_24.pdf

I haven’t found anything which actually defines what is required for Greece - the RYA says they will generally accept an ICC but also aren’t signatories to the UN Resolution, and may require a Greek translation! There feels like a weird leap of faith there for me - proving competence with a certificate they don’t officially sanction! I am also well aware that Greece change their boating rules more often than almost anyone else, and local officials may misinterpret rules to suit their own whim or potentially pocket. I don’t actually recall reading of any stories of real British sailors getting fined (or even delayed) because the sailed a British flagged boat without a qualification in Greek waters? It seems odd that given how many people here object to the qualification schemes that no Brit without a ticket has fallen foul of a Greek official and reported it back here, in magazines etc. or equally if it does happen that nobody between the RYA and the various consulates has managed to produce a definitive list of acceptable qualifications.

 

[Tranona]

I haven’t found anything which actually defines what is required for Greece - the RYA says they will generally accept an ICC but also aren’t signatories to the UN Resolution, and may require a Greek translation! There feels like a weird leap of faith there for me - proving competence with a certificate they don’t officially sanction! I am also well aware that Greece change their boating rules more often than almost anyone else, and local officials may misinterpret rules to suit their own whim or potentially pocket. I don’t actually recall reading of any stories of real British sailors getting fined (or even delayed) because the sailed a British flagged boat without a qualification in Greek waters? It seems odd that given how many people here object to the qualification schemes that no Brit without a ticket has fallen foul of a Greek official and reported it back here, in magazines etc. or equally if it does happen that nobody between the RYA and the various consulates has managed to produce a definitive list of acceptable qualifications.

I have been here a long time and there have indeed been incidents reported here of the coastguard impounding boats which have called for help. I also kept my boat in Greece for 10 years from 2001, first as a charter boat then private use. During that time the requirement for qualifications on charter boats (which are Greek registered) changed from the ad hoc local arrangements to formal requirement for qualifications, and the ICC is on the list. It is irrelevant that Greece has not signed Resolution 43. That just means they can't issue ICCs to their own citizens - who do have to be qualified. Their charter industry would collapse if they did not accept the ICC. Generally they leave non Greek boats alone except in respect of their own cruising permits and tax and even then the application of their own laws is variable from place to place. Local port police have a high degree of autonomy and there is nothing to stop them asking for evidence of qualifications from anybody, and making life difficult if you can't comply.

The EBA which co-ordinated the efforts to get the ICC up and running might have a list of qualifications. Croatia does, in respect of what it will accept. but last time I looked it was incomplete and full of errors. About 30 years ago I was running a Masters degree in Maritime Management and one of my students proposed research for his dissertation on the subject of skipper and boat licencing for leisure boats internationally (remember this was when the RCD was being developed) but quickly gave up because of the complexity and lack of reliable data. Given that the whole area is contested and there is no formal structure for qualifications such as exists in commercial shipping the best one can do is get an ICC in the knowledge that you will rarely if ever need it except for chartering and be grateful that the UK government and RYA have made it so easy and cheap to get.

 

[Graham376]

You might want to buy an atlas!

Actually, part of Morocco ,Ceuta (well worth a visit) is in EU but of course Smir around the corner is Morocco not EU.

 

[Graham376]

OK, so where a state takes action against a vessel which is not on innocent passage it must inform the government of the flag state of the vessel.

How many times has that happened in Europe to a UK flagged vessel since WW2? Has it happened anywhere?

We've had our boat impounded in Portugal and know of several others and I very much doubt authorities informed UK, it's just a local issue. In our case, we were hit on the mooring and the bow nav light was knocked off. Policia Maritima impounded the boat and required Authority Maritima to survey and confirm when it had been fixed. Had to get permission just to move it to the yard, no other movements allowed even in daylight.

 

[Mark-1]

We've had our boat impounded in Portugal and know of several others and I very much doubt authorities informed UK, it's just a local issue. In our case, we were hit on the mooring and the bow nav light was knocked off. Policia Maritima impounded the boat and required Authority Maritima to survey and confirm when it had been fixed. Had to get permission just to move it to the yard, no other movements allowed even in daylight.

Fine, but where a state takes action against a vessel which is not on innocent passage it must inform the government of the flag state of the vessel.

Luckily you weren't shelling a town, or cutting undersea cables or any other other nefarious activities so no action taken against you for not being on innocent passage and no need to inform anyone.

 

[ylop]

I have been here a long time and there have indeed been incidents reported here of the coastguard impounding boats which have called for help.

But why? Further up the thread you said "until it passes their survey". That's not a missing ICC. Any state can impound your vessel if they want to (e.g. even the UK would if they believed you were operating commercially). As you rightly point out once an official in a beaurocratic foreign state where you don't speak the language decides there is a problem - you have a problem even if by the letter of the law you were fine. But having an ICC doesn't guarantee that they won't impound you!

I also kept my boat in Greece for 10 years from 2001, first as a charter boat then private use. During that time the requirement for qualifications on charter boats (which are Greek registered) changed from the ad hoc local arrangements to formal requirement for qualifications, and the ICC is on the list.

Yes, but that's not the same as a UK leisure user sailing his own British boat through Greece.

It is irrelevant that Greece has not signed Resolution 43. That just means they can't issue ICCs to their own citizens - who do have to be qualified.

No Resolution 40 expects that if you issue ICC's then you also accept them. (Para 2a).

Their charter industry would collapse if they did not accept the ICC. Generally they leave non Greek boats alone except in respect of their own cruising permits and tax and even then the application of their own laws is variable from place to place.

I'm not sure charter is relevant to the question of someone who has a sailboat and associated ICC, including power <10m and intends to purchase a mobo which will be >10m.

Local port police have a high degree of autonomy and there is nothing to stop them asking for evidence of qualifications from anybody, and making life difficult if you can't comply.

Of course - and I'm not trying to start a fight here, I simply asked if he was sure he really needed a new ICC. e.g. Croatia will accept DS Theory course alone for some stuff! Its possible if he can find a definitive answer that his existing sail or shorter power quals already cover his intended use.

and be grateful that the UK government and RYA have made it so easy and cheap to get.

It's very easy, and cheap, if you have a convertible RYA qual. For someone who has an ICC power < 10m + ICC sail < 24m who wants to "cover" an 11m boat (which could in theory be from the same mould tool at the sail boat just with no mast!) it is at least an inconvenience. As emerged on mark's thread the other day for an experienced skipper it could actually be no more expensive to get YM (Coastal) than arranging a one-off ICC assessment.

 

[Mark-1]

But why? Further up the thread you said "until it passes their survey". That's not a missing ICC. Any state can impound your vessel if they want to (e.g. even the UK would if they believed you were operating commercially). As you rightly point out once an official in a beaurocratic foreign state where you don't speak the language decides there is a problem - you have a problem even if by the letter of the law you were fine. But having an ICC doesn't guarantee that they won't impound you!

This. If someone is making up rules you can't anticipate what rule they might make up.

 

[ylop]

Actually, part of Morocco ,Ceuta (well worth a visit) is in EU but of course Smir around the corner is Morocco not EU.

When Amazon deliver the atlas, check if it's part of Morocco or actually part of Spain. I guess the key question here is which laws apply, and I don't know, having never had any reason to check.

 

[Graham376]

When Amazon deliver the atlas, check if it's part of Morocco or actually part of Spain. I guess the key question here is which laws apply, and I don't know, having never had any reason to check.

As we both know well it's a Spanish territory, previously Portuguese

 

[Mark-1]

It's very easy, and cheap, if you have a convertible RYA qual. For someone who has an ICC power < 10m + ICC sail < 24m who wants to "cover" an 11m boat (which could in theory be from the same mould tool at the sail boat just with no mast!) it is at least an inconvenience.

Interestingly, the power (ICC-4A) and sail (ICC-4B) of the ICC tests are identical except the Power test has a set of open water manoevers on the plane (which are optional) which is substituted by a set of open water manoevers under sail for Sail ICC. So literally the only difference in text is section 6 which is optional for mobos.

So the sail ICC ought to automatically give you a Motor ICC > 10m, IMHO.

 

[Graham376]

Interesting the power (ICC-4A) and sail (ICC-4B) of the ICC tests are identical except the Power test has a set of open water manoevers on the plane (which are optional) which is substituted by a set of open water manoevers under sail for Sail ICC. So literally the only difference in text is section 6.

So the sail ICC ought to automatically give you a Motor ICC > 10m, IMHO.

I queried this with the RYA some time ago, pointing out that my 12m sailing boat was in fact a power boat when the sails were furled. Not a chance of them uprating ICC to >10m power.

 

[capnsensible]

When Amazon deliver the atlas, check if it's part of Morocco or actually part of Spain. I guess the key question here is which laws apply, and I don't know, having never had any reason to check.

Sailors use charts and pilot books.

Anyway, Ceuta is a Spanish enclave. I've been there several hundred times so if you want a guide to sightseeing, bars, restaurants and epically furnished churches, please ask.

The other inhabited enclave is further east. Melilla. Have sailed there a few times. Slightly odd place but worth a visit..

 

[capnsensible]

I queried this with the RYA some time ago, pointing out that my 12m sailing boat was in fact a power boat when the sails were furled. Not a chance of them uprating ICC to >10m power.

Yup. Totally different disciplines in the practical assessment. I've coached a lot of people moving from one to the other. General feeling is one of surprise....

 

[Mark-1]

I queried this with the RYA some time ago, pointing out that my 12m sailing boat was in fact a power boat when the sails were furled. Not a chance of them uprating ICC to >10m power.

TBH I can see why the RYA wouldn't do it retrospectively for an individual but there appears to be no requirement for a specific hull form between A and B... Doesn't even have to be a monohull. Could certainly be a MacGregor 26M.

 

[Tranona]

But why? Further up the thread you said "until it passes their survey". That's not a missing ICC. Any state can impound your vessel if they want to (e.g. even the UK would if they believed you were operating commercially). As you rightly point out once an official in a beaurocratic foreign state where you don't speak the language decides there is a problem - you have a problem even if by the letter of the law you were fine. But having an ICC doesn't guarantee that they won't impound you!

Yes, but that's not the same as a UK leisure user sailing his own British boat through Greece.

No Resolution 40 expects that if you issue ICC's then you also accept them. (Para 2a).

I'm not sure charter is relevant to the question of someone who has a sailboat and associated ICC, including power <10m and intends to purchase a mobo which will be >10m.

Of course - and I'm not trying to start a fight here, I simply asked if he was sure he really needed a new ICC. e.g. Croatia will accept DS Theory course alone for some stuff! Its possible if he can find a definitive answer that his existing sail or shorter power quals already cover his intended use.

It's very easy, and cheap, if you have a convertible RYA qual. For someone who has an ICC power < 10m + ICC sail < 24m who wants to "cover" an 11m boat (which could in theory be from the same mould tool at the sail boat just with no mast!) it is at least an inconvenience. As emerged on mark's thread the other day for an experienced skipper it could actually be no more expensive to get YM (Coastal) than arranging a one-off ICC assessment.

I was required to present my ICC when getting a DEKPA (cruising log) for my boat when I registered it on the SSR rather than the Greek register. Not a formal requirement but the DEKPA is a legal requirement so you don't argue as you can't legally cruise without the log. I think you haver the issue/recognition the wrong way round - Greece does not issue but recognises the ICC.

Whether an ICC is required or not, someone in Graham's position who is skippering a boat that is not covered by his ICC is likely to have difficulties IF he is asked for it. There are always anomalies in regulations and being able to have the power under 10m endorsement even if you have never driven such a boat has always seemed daft - but guess it suited somebody's agenda when it was agreed. Pretty sure the UK is the only state that offers the ICC by assessment rather than on the basis rather than based on an existing qualification. There is a huge range of locations and providers offering assessment so hardly a monopoly as suggested by some.

 

[ylop]

I think you haver the issue/recognition the wrong way round - Greece does not issue but recognises the ICC.

No you are misunderstanding the resolution 40 allows you to issue certificates on the quid pro quo that you recognise certificates issued by other states to their citizens. Greece haven’t signed so have no obligation to accept it. Nobody seems able to point to an actual rule that defines what is needed so tomorrow some official can decide it’s still not good enough. Or as the RYA seem to suggest that Greek Translations may be demanded.

Pretty sure the UK is the only state that offers the ICC by assessment rather than on the basis rather than based on an existing qualification.

Well that’s definitely wrong because ISA issue them for ROI by Direct Assessment. I haven’t checked anywhere else but the list of approved bodies in most countries don’t sound like training organisations.

 

[Dellquay13]

Greece haven’t signed so have no obligation to accept it. Nobody seems able to point to an actual rule that defines what is needed so tomorrow some official can decide it’s still not good enough. Or as the RYA seem to suggest that Greek Translations may be demanded.

I was never asked by anyone to show my ICC in the 10 years I had a boat there, but had I been and asked for a translation in Greek I would have pointed to the Greek translation on the back cover.

 

[Tranona]

No you are misunderstanding the resolution 40 allows you to issue certificates on the quid pro quo that you recognise certificates issued by other states to their citizens. Greece haven’t signed so have no obligation to accept it. Nobody seems able to point to an actual rule that defines what is needed so tomorrow some official can decide it’s still not good enough. Or as the RYA seem to suggest that Greek Translations may be demanded.

Well that’s definitely wrong because ISA issue them for ROI by Direct Assessment. I haven’t checked anywhere else but the list of approved bodies in most countries don’t sound like training organisations.

The Greek government (and any other) can accept or not anything they want. They do not need to sign up to anything to accept it. Same with any other qualification which many other states will accept. The list produced by Croatia for example has a huge number of qualifications listed off which the ICC is one.

 

[Davy_S]

We lived in Greece for 10 years, one of our boats was a powerboat of 140 hp, i have the ICC and had no problems until i wanted to insure it with a Greek broker, they would not insure it without seeing the ICC, it was ok after that, an Italian friend had a rib with 15hp no problem, but the minute he swapped the engine for 25hp they were on him, they knew!
He was forced to take the Greek powerboat test or he would have been fined if he used the bigger engine. He had to take the test.