ICC By Assessment?

[Laser310]

As the thread starter..., i will just mention that I ultimately did get my ICC by assessment.

Like a lot of people who do it by assessment, I had been sailing for ever, including racing at a reasonably competitive level. and didn't want to take a class on the right way to tack a boat.

My ICC is issued by RYA, but I did the assessment in the USA.

it was interesting; a total of four were supposed to be assessed on the day, but I was the only one who showed up. I think everyone else lost their fee. What that meant was that I had the full attention of the examiner for the entire day; there was nowhere to hide.

As we went through assessing practical skills; leaving the dock, following the channel, sailing, tacking, gybing, etc.., he peppered me with various questions until we got back, when I had to demonstrate my docking skills.

Then I did a series of exercises on the chart.

I _did_ have to anchor.

The funny thing is, since I got the ICC, all of my chartering has been in France (Brittany), and French charter agencies do not require an ICC. They just ask for a sailing resume. There is no evaluation or anything.

 

[Laser310]

What I have noticed in France regarding the ICC is that the way they say it: "The ICC is not required in France", leads me to think that the requirement would have to be imposed by some sort of administrative body or something.

They don't say: "this agency does not require it", as if they were free to do so if they wished.

 

[ylop]

Thanks, direct assessment would be easiest.

If you can find somewhere to do it, on your own boat it probably is. But if you are paying for use of a boat and 1:1 time with the assessor, it might work out more expensive than DS!

All my sailing is in EU so, although I have never been asked to produce it, ICC is a requirement, CEVNI which I have anyway, only applies to some inland waterways.

Worth confirming that with people who know but my understanding is a UK boat, with a UK skipper does not need an ICC even in waters where locals would. Of course even if that is correct it may be easier to have it than to try and tell a greek coastguard official they are wrong!

The ICC is not an EU thing, not all EU countries recognise it and even fewer require it.

 

[zoidberg]

What in heavens caused you to resurrect a 4 year old thread just to parade your views on the ICC.
Many of us were delighted to get this as a simple and effective way to meet the requirements for a Med charter holiday.
Your prejudices are laughable - not a “foreign thing imposed on us” and frankly not sure why anybody in yacht clubs, old or new, would be discussing ICCs - but suspect I wouldn’t want to be with any such snobs.

Tsk! Tsk!

My prejudices are my own. Having been insulted by experts, I'm reminded of Groucho Marks' infamous retort:

'I wouldn't wish to join any club that would have me as a member.'

 

[Mark-1]

The funny thing is, since I got the ICC, all of my chartering has been in France (Brittany), and French charter agencies do not require an ICC. They just ask for a sailing resume. There is no evaluation or anything.

Is there anywhere in Brittany you'd recommend, I've only been that way once, might be time to revisit.

(And thanks for this thread, I had a recent question about ICCs and google directed me to this thread.)

 

[Laser310]

Is there anywhere in Brittany you'd recommend, I've only been that way once, might be time to revisit.

(And thanks for this thread, I had a recent question about ICCs and google directed me to this thread.)

All of it..., really.

Actually, I haven't seen all of it yet, But I've been three times in the last 14 months, so I am making progress.I have done two charters and a cruise with a French friend.

I have only been off season - May, and September/October. Weather can be tricky then, but nothing is crowded. It's a very popular cruising ground and vacation spot for the French. A cousin of my wife has a summer house in Arzal - along with many thousands of other Parisians.

I have chartered through Alternative Sailing, based in La Trinite, with a smaller office near by in Quiberon. The Baie de Quiberon is an easy introduction to sailing that coast, There are other agencies in that area so if you are chartering, that might be an option. There are several beautiful Islands in the Bay.

The sailing culture in Brittany is amazing; many boats of all sizes out in all conditions.

I was surprised at how friendly and helpful the people at the various capitaineries have been; no attitude at all, you can ask anything.., and you should because when you go to a new cruising ground, you don't know what you don't know. Tides there are large; "can I get to the diesel dock at low tide?" maybe not. If the docking situation is a bit sketchy, they are happy to help with the RIB. It seems that pretty much all the harbours are first come, first served; no reservations.., but I have never been turned away.

 

[Graham376]

my understanding is a UK boat, with a UK skipper does not need an ICC even in waters where locals would. O

Any coastal state has the right to invoke it's rules on any boat (not on innocent passage) in it's waters, regardless of flag.

 

[ylop]

Any coastal state has the right to invoke it's rules on any boat (not on innocent passage) in its waters, regardless of flag.

That wasn’t the question.

France

 

[Tranona]

That wasn’t the question.

France

But what he says is still true. While France does not currently have any formal requirement for visitors in coastal waters it has every right to do so if it wishes. The whole idea of the ICC was to have a basic certificate of competence that could be universally accepted. It is issued by governments (not the RYA!) and while not all states have signed up to the UN resolution that established it, many accept it if they do have a requirement for visitors or more commonly where the requirement is for skippers of charter boats under the local flag state

 

[ylop]

But what he says is still true. While France does not currently have any formal requirement for visitors in coastal waters it has every right to do so if it wishes. The whole idea of the ICC was to have a basic certificate of competence that could be universally accepted. It is issued by governments (not the RYA!) and while not all states have signed up to the UN resolution that established it, many accept it if they do have a requirement for visitors or more commonly where the requirement is for skippers of charter boats under the local flag state

None of which is disputed! But the point was does he actually need an ICC anyway!

 

[Graham376]

That wasn’t the question.

France

OK then, your question was "my understanding is a UK boat, with a UK skipper does not need an ICC"

Being UK registered with UK citizen skipper doesn't give exemption to any of the rules other countries have. Some require ICC, some require qualification, some don't require anything.

One of the countries we sail to does require ICC, it is recommended for the other two on own boat but AFAIK is required for chartering.

 

[ylop]

OK then, your question was "my understanding is a UK boat, with a UK skipper does not need an ICC"

Being UK registered with UK citizen skipper doesn't give exemption to any of the rules other countries have.

Well clearly it does in most countries - not because of some UK exceptionalism but because in most jurisdictions visiting yachts are expected to comply with their flag state requirements.

Some require ICC, some require qualification, some don't require anything.

One of the countries we sail to does require ICC, it is recommended for the other two on own boat but AFAIK is required for chartering.

You are being unusually evasive rather than specifying the country which needs it - you could have solved all that by saying it. Most of the med countries haven’t even signed the UN Resolution to issue ICC’s themselves (although they may recognise it even if they are not signatories).

 

[Graham376]

You are being unusually evasive rather than specifying the country which needs it - you could have solved all that by saying it. Most of the med countries haven’t even signed the UN Resolution to issue ICC’s themselves (although they may recognise it even if they are not signatories).

Morocco

 

[ylop]

All my sailing is in EU so, although I have never been asked to produce it, ICC is a requirement,

Morocco

You might want to buy an atlas!

 

[Tranona]

None of which is disputed! But the point was does he actually need an ICC anyway!

He won't know until the situation arises when he needs to demonstrate his competence. For example if he is involved in an incident where there is damage or injury and he has to call the coastguard he mat well find that his ICC is his saviour. It is clear that the "official" position in any state does not preclude local officials from setting their own requirements - for example if you call the coastguard in Greece they will impound your boat and require you to have evidence of competence - plus not release your boat until it passes their survey.

So "need" is a slippery word in this context

 

[Mark-1]

It is clear that the "official" position in any state does not preclude local officials from setting their own requirements

Well maybe, but if so a) It's never happened, b) It's impossible to predict what those requirements might be so impossible to pre-empt them.

The rules are that vessels follow the rules of their flag state. Anything else would be completely unworkable.

Apparently some governments have applied rules over and above the rules of the flag state (Ireland, lifejackets?) but that's not a local official making up rules. Doubt there has ever been a prosecution either.

 

[dunedin]

…..

The rules are that vessels follow the rules of their flag state. Anything else would be completely unworkable.

….

That is a myth - it is clear that UNCLOS rights of “innocent passage” don’t apply to a vessel which stops in coastal waters. And based on the UNCLOS definition (waters which are landward of the base line), which includes many ports, harbours, estuaries and bays and of course the inland waters such as rivers and canals, even anchoring for lunch will invalidate innocent passage.

Clearly many/most countries apply strict rules on foreign flagged vessels in inland canals. They can choose to do the same in their coastal waters if they want to do so. Many do not seek to do this, but they are entirely within their legal rights.

Law of the Sea

 

[capnsensible]

That is a myth - it is clear that UNCLOS rights of “innocent passage” don’t apply to a vessel which stops in coastal waters. And based on the UNCLOS definition (waters which are landward of the base line), which includes many ports, harbours, estuaries and bays and of course the inland waters such as rivers and canals, even anchoring for lunch will invalidate innocent passage.

Clearly many/most countries imply strict rules on foreign flagged vessels in inland canals. They can choose to do the same in their coastal waters if they choose to do so. Many do not seek to do this, but they are entirely within their legal rights.

Law of the Sea

Spot on. As soon as you stop in another countries waters, you abide by their rules. That's what pilot books and Google are for. To see what they are.

I know some people get the hump about flags. But ask anyone who has actually travelled a bit and they will tell you that you must identify your own flag state with your ensign and your agreement to abide by another states rules with a courtesy flag.

Many have not been exposed to countries where punitive fines may result. I know of two incidents where this has happened, once in Antigua and once in the Bahamas. Talk to cruisers and you will discover plenty more.

It's easy to check before you go somewhere so you don't look a fool.

 

[Mark-1]

That is a myth - it is clear that UNCLOS rights of “innocent passage” don’t apply to a vessel which stops in coastal waters.

OK, so where a state takes action against a vessel which is not on innocent passage it must inform the government of the flag state of the vessel.

How many times has that happened in Europe to a UK flagged vessel since WW2? Has it happened anywhere?

 

[capnsensible]

Some people clearly haven't read all the reports of fines involving holding tanks, transit logs, fishing permits, safety equipment carried, yadda yadda.