I think I might be taking my life in my hands but....

Re: Incidentally... correction please ... I think you made a slip ..

>I wonder if this is a problem which looms large in the minds of Solent sailors, just because they're not used to it? <

Possibly. I've only done it once (twice if you count the return trip) in the Dover TSS, and although it seemed like the annual pan-European merchant ship rally, we got across without alarums and excursions, by constant use of the handbearing compass and sail trimming/detrimming to adjust our speed.
 
Re: Incidentally... correction please ... I think you made a slip ..

[ QUOTE ]
........And then we hit one of the funnies about Colregs; under 13(d) an overtaking vessel is the give-way vessel until she is past and clear, irrespective of any subsequent alteration of the bearing. There is no similar proviso for crossing or head-on vessels.....

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe not hard and fast text ... but the rules basically are accepted by all that no subsequent alteration will change the obligations of each vessel. Therefore just because one moment you are crossing vessel and decide to turn to port does not make you a vessel being overtaken in the eyes of the colregs - you are still the crossing vessel and obliged to keep clear and avoid risk of collision. This is the only point I will agree with TK.

Some on here have asked - when would anyone turn to stbd ... give examples ... etc. OK - check out the cross channel ferries - they do this day in day out again and again ...

Oh and to any others who want to start bring in sail etc. - the original question clearly stated you were crossing the TSS under motor ..... making you a Power Driven vessel in the eyes of the law.

I am waiting for my pal who is on the Working Cmmttee of IMO to reply ... of course there's no g'tee that he will answer and clear this up !! As we know - often authorities throw the "depends on circumstances curved ball in !!"

Let's see .....
 
Re: Incidentally... correction please ... I think you made a slip ..

[ QUOTE ]

It's interesting. Sailing on the East Coast and crossing to France, Begium or Holland I have to cross several TSSs on each trip. Even worse when heading up the continental coast and crossing the traffic into the Scheldt, the Rhine, the Ems, the Elbe and so on. I have never found any significant difficulty in doing so, even when there has been quite heavy traffic. I wonder if this is a problem which looms large in the minds of Solent sailors, just because they're not used to it?

[/ QUOTE ]

I was pondering much the same thing yesterday - have done many TSS crossings including all the ones you list and never had a major problem either - but does this necessarily mean that we have done them well? It may be that every trip 5 ships have gone past complete with expletives, WAFI's etc! How are we to know!

Lets face it, you probably arn't going to get an answer to how well you perform unless you end up in court for some reason.
 
Re: Incidentally... correction please ... I think you made a slip ..

Like sbc I have a contact who recently retired from the IMO Rules Committee.

His opinion is that Rule 15 applies, and either turn to starboard or slow down.

'A temporary turn to starboard to pass astern of another vessel in a crossing situation is not a contravention of Rule 10.'
 
Re: Incidentally... correction please ... I think you made a slip ..

yes I would broadly agree with that.

The only problem is that rule 15 does not say that you should turn to std. or slow down, just says get out of the way. Ken's argument is that turning to port therefore is within the regs.
 
Re: Incidentally... correction please ... I think you made a slip ..

As far as I can tell turns to port and starboard are equally permitted under the regs. However, the real point is what is safer/better. I'm with the starboard side (having crossed the Dover TSS several times in my trailer sailor - Capecutter19....) as it seems to me intrinsically safer.

Earlier Ken was worried about ending up in a bow to bow position ith an unseen vessel - but by definition an unseen vessel (and I assume he meant over the horizon as if it was hidden by the first ship in the original question it would be even further away than the first ship) can't be an immediate danger.

By turning to starboard, your boat's non crossing track of the TSS is minimised, and it is much (IMHO) easier to see when the course can be set back to 90deg to the TSS.

By the way, my first night crossing taught me one very valuable lesson - it is difficult when you see a ships' light to tell if it is a big light far away, or a small light quite close! Getting that wrong caused me a scare, and I'm afraid it was a 180, via a starboard turn, that got me out of it.

David
 
Re: Incidentally... correction please ... I think you made a slip ..

[ QUOTE ]
yes I would broadly agree with that.

The only problem is that rule 15 does not say that you should turn to std. or slow down, just says get out of the way. Ken's argument is that turning to port therefore is within the regs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Quite agree ............ bit like when that car that is going to hit you and you take whatever action necessary to avoid being hit ... but then it's an emergency situation and that is the only time really that port turn would enter my mind.
I can honestly say that before making any change - many ideas / possibles flash through my mind ... and then I make a bold and decisive decision ... no half-measures. I want the other guy to KNOW what I'm doing as far as possible.

In terms of stbd turns port to port .... it is actually - end on or NEAR end on in the rules ...

TK is taking I think a liberty with the rules as they do allow you to take such action as deemed best ... let's give example that came up when I sat my first Merch Ticket ....

Aural examination question :
Examiner (DOT) held up a board with lights on and asked what is it ...
Answer - Tug and tow ... tow being over xxx ft etc.
Examiner : OK - correct, now you see this on your port bow and you are both approaching a crossing situation ... what do you do ?
Answer : Technically as he is not showing red-white-red signal indicating special circumstances etc. - I should stand on and treat him as a vessel to give way. BUT as I know he is a Tug and tow by way of his lights - I would take seamanlike action and alter to alolow him safe passage boldly and clearly so he has no misunderstanding of my intention - I would pass well astern of him. It is far easier for me to change course than for him.
Examiner : I agree and accept your answer in the act of good seamanship.

happy now TK ?
 
Re: Incidentally... correction please ... I think you made a slip ..

So there I am, in the court of enquiry, having pranged the QM2, which sank with the loss of all hands.

"Why did you turn towards a ship proceeding down a TSS" asks m'learned friend?

"Coz some bloke in Latvia said I could", I reply.

"Off with his head" says the judge.
 
Re: Incidentally... correction please ... I think you made a slip ..

I have always considered you intelligent: obdurate is now another word that comes to mind - your posts nearly always make me smile though!
 
Re: Incidentally... correction please ... I think you made a slip ..

Quote....So there I am, in the court of enquiry, having pranged the QM2, which sank with the loss of all hands.

"Why did you turn towards a ship proceeding down a TSS" asks m'learned friend?

What bollocks! You do not point at the ship, you show him your port side which lets him realise that you know what you are doing. When he is safely past, you pass behind him and all is well.
If you are wallowning about under the bows of the approaching vessel, you are far more likely to cause an accident and far more likely to be called in front of your learned friend, and told to behave in a more sensible manner /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

John
 
Re: Incidentally... correction please ... I think you made a slip ..

[ QUOTE ]
So there I am, in the court of enquiry, having pranged the QM2, which sank with the loss of all hands.

"Why did you turn towards a ship proceeding down a TSS" asks m'learned friend?

"Coz some bloke in Latvia said I could", I reply.

"Off with his head" says the judge.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now you are really scraping the absurd barrell .... I certainly would have expected better of you than that twaddle !!

TK - give up will you - this is getting boring and silly ...
 
Re: Incidentally... correction please ... I think you made a slip ..

Don't hold your breath waiting for the white flag. There's no way he can get his colours off the mast now - the nails have rusted in.

Mark
 
Re: Incidentally... correction please ... I think you made a slip ..

[ QUOTE ]
SBC, time to get your sense of humour gland serviced!

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh ... I get it now .... a) its trolling for max views / posts .... b) you forgot the smileys to show it was a joke all along .... c) you think that quips like the last will pull you out of the deep hole you put yourself in .....

Sorry - didn't get your meaning early enough .................

My sense of humour is fine ... I'm just worried about newbies who may consider acting in the way you advise ....

/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
 
Re: Incidentally... correction please ... I think you made a slip ..

Forgive me if I'm a little wary of taking advice from the merchant marine!

"At 1145 UTC the fishing vessel Lady Matilda was involved in a collision with the coastal tanker Bro Gratitude. The collision took place about five miles off the Cornish coast near Falmouth and neither of the vessels were found to be keeping a proper lookout."

"On a dark night with good visibility the fv Natalie collided with an unlit barge being towed by the tug Bay Protector. Natalie was damaged by the collision but there were no injuries and she was able to return to port under her own power, with a lifeboat escort. Both vessels made assumptions based on scanty information when assessing if risk of collision existed, which resulted in neither vessel taking sufficient action, in ample time, to avoid the collision."

"At 1921 UTC the Red Eagle was involved in a collision in fog with the coastal tanker Humber Energy. The collision took place in the central Solent in the Western Approach to the Thorn Channel, close to the West Bramble buoy in very poor visibility."

"South of Grimsby Middle in the River Humber, the UK registered 1696gt tanker Amenity collided with the Norwegian registered ro-ro cargo vessel Tor Dania. Both vessels suffered significant damage but there were no injuries or pollution and both vessels were able to continue to berth un-aided before being withdrawn from service for repairs. There was a north-westerly wind blowing force 4 to 5, visibility was good and there were moderate seas."

"Factors identified during the joint investigation were: the officer of the watch (OOW) on board Cepheus J being distracted by radio news and paperwork; the absence of a lookout on board Cepheus J; the poor use of Automatic Radar Plotting Aid (ARPA) and Automatic Information System (AIS); poor application of the COLREGS and both ships following the same ground track."

"Sky Hopehad been observing the approach of Hyundai Dominion. However, other than VHF communication there was no avoidance action taken until she was within a range of 0.2 nautical mile (nm).
• Sky Hope judged Hyundai Dominionto be an overtaking vessel which, in accordance with the COLREGS, required him to take no immediate avoiding action.
• Hyundai Dominion considered Sky Hope was a crossing vessel requiring Hyundai Dominion to “stand-on”.
• In VHF communications between the vessels leading up to the collision, it is likely that a disagreement took place due to the difference in opinion over the “crossing” or “overtaking” situation.
• The OOW of Hyundai Dominion stated that he sent a text message over AIS asking Sky Hope to keep clear. The OOW of Sky Hope stated that he did not receive this message."

etc

(dons tin hat and retires to bunker)
 
Re: Incidentally... correction please ... I think you made a slip ..

[ QUOTE ]
Forgive me if I'm a little wary of taking advice from the merchant marine!

"At 1145 UTC the fishing vessel Lady Matilda was involved in a collision with the coastal tanker Bro Gratitude. The collision took place about five miles off the Cornish coast near Falmouth and neither of the vessels were found to be keeping a proper lookout."

"On a dark night with good visibility the fv Natalie collided with an unlit barge being towed by the tug Bay Protector. Natalie was damaged by the collision but there were no injuries and she was able to return to port under her own power, with a lifeboat escort. Both vessels made assumptions based on scanty information when assessing if risk of collision existed, which resulted in neither vessel taking sufficient action, in ample time, to avoid the collision."

"At 1921 UTC the Red Eagle was involved in a collision in fog with the coastal tanker Humber Energy. The collision took place in the central Solent in the Western Approach to the Thorn Channel, close to the West Bramble buoy in very poor visibility."

"South of Grimsby Middle in the River Humber, the UK registered 1696gt tanker Amenity collided with the Norwegian registered ro-ro cargo vessel Tor Dania. Both vessels suffered significant damage but there were no injuries or pollution and both vessels were able to continue to berth un-aided before being withdrawn from service for repairs. There was a north-westerly wind blowing force 4 to 5, visibility was good and there were moderate seas."

"Factors identified during the joint investigation were: the officer of the watch (OOW) on board Cepheus J being distracted by radio news and paperwork; the absence of a lookout on board Cepheus J; the poor use of Automatic Radar Plotting Aid (ARPA) and Automatic Information System (AIS); poor application of the COLREGS and both ships following the same ground track."

"Sky Hopehad been observing the approach of Hyundai Dominion. However, other than VHF communication there was no avoidance action taken until she was within a range of 0.2 nautical mile (nm).
• Sky Hope judged Hyundai Dominionto be an overtaking vessel which, in accordance with the COLREGS, required him to take no immediate avoiding action.
• Hyundai Dominion considered Sky Hope was a crossing vessel requiring Hyundai Dominion to “stand-on”.
• In VHF communications between the vessels leading up to the collision, it is likely that a disagreement took place due to the difference in opinion over the “crossing” or “overtaking” situation.
• The OOW of Hyundai Dominion stated that he sent a text message over AIS asking Sky Hope to keep clear. The OOW of Sky Hope stated that he did not receive this message."

etc

(dons tin hat and retires to bunker)

[/ QUOTE ]

And I am sure that sufficient number of Yacht incidents can bge dredged up from web pages etc. and archives to make that post's value questionable.

AND it doesn't support anyones case here anyway - so why quote it all ?

I cannot laugh or shrug this off ... it's too ludicrous and all on a serious matter as well !!

I think you better stay in closed waters away from shipping TK ... as you said you only ventured 2x into such areas ... sounds like 2x too many !! /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
 
Re: Incidentally... correction please ... I think you made a slip ..

[ QUOTE ]
I think you better stay in closed waters away from shipping TK ... as you said you only ventured 2x into such areas ... sounds like 2x too many !!

[/ QUOTE ]
What you mustn't forget about TK is that he has set off hundreds of times fully intending to cross the TSS/lane but sometimes he doesn't quite make it.

Those of us familiar with his record are surprised that the count has got as high as 2 /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
Re: Incidentally... correction please ... I think you made a slip ..

going back to the original question

is it better to slow down or turn to port ........... either will avoid a close quarter situation so both are equally valid

however, and I say this without reading all the previous posts, why is it thought the merchant vessel will not alter for the crossing yacht ? following the traffic separation scheme does not make the merch the stand on vessel, and so long as the yot has a course 90 degrees to the lane he has nothing to fear accept fear itself. the merch is the give way vessel

as for crossing ahead or astern, to cross ahead you need either a speed advantage or plenty of sea room and it must be done in plenty of time - unlikely ina yot

as for a yot electing to cross astern of a merch, thats ok if done in plenty of time with a bold alteration ........ depending on the circumstances of the case. whats to say the singlehanded yottie has to nip down below so luffs up ...... is anyone suggesting he is breaking the colregs by not standing on /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

or should I have read through |ALL those other offerings before jumping in with both feet /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
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