I think I might be taking my life in my hands but....

Re: I think I might be taking my life in my hands but.... #2

[ QUOTE ]
SBC - I've been thinking about this. Bear with me!

Sticking strictly with the Colregs at the moment:

Are we saying that vessels crossing a TSS should do what is necessary not to find themselves in a situation where there is a risk of collision, as when you get to this then the 'normal' rules of the road apply - ie power gives way to sail etc unless restricted/constrained etc.

If this is the case then heading changes prior to a risk of collision can be done in the most seamanly manner - be it to port of std. as appropriate - ie it is not covered by the rules.

Are we then going on to say that if a risk of collion does develop we as good yachtsmen according to the regs should stand on, but for reasons of sense/self preservation etc. do then sensible thing - don't stand on but make changes that are obvious to the OOW.

Is it a bit like driving along a road where you have right of way but letting somebody out of the side road because it makes more sense at the time?

If this is true then it does beg the question about how you judge that you have gone from a 'pre-collision situation' to a collision situatuion' where the rules have suddenly changed?

From a ship's perspective this is presumably different from the perspective of a slower, more nimble craft.

[/ QUOTE ]

Cor ... took a bit of re-reading there ..........

Breaking it down as you have gives it a sense of unreality ... but in fact when vessels are far enough away from each other to not be in or approcahing close 1/4's situation - then of course you can take what ever action you like..... as long as you are not contravening a TSS or other Traffic rule of that area.
If you had to abide by Colregs for situations outside of close 1/4's then how would vessels proceed from port to port ? Having plotted various vessels at range on radar and gauged their actions and my own etc. I can say honestly that vessels do turn as required for their own purposes when not in close 1/4's situations.
But take note that - a vessel should not turn and create a risk of collision without due consideration and should proceed such that collsion avoidance is complied with as per Colregs.

The whole problem here is the TSS and different vessels ... one a yacht crossing a TSS and a ship proceeding along the TSS. Both have completely different manouevring characteristics and also completely different restraints due to the location and TSS. I still say it is better for the yacht to assume the ship is restricted by the TSS and round her stern ... the ship cannot know whether the yacht is sailing or motoring ... regardless of whether sails are up or not - OOW knows from his rules that a yacht with engine in gear is classed as a power driven vessel ... I would suggest he would assume the yacht with sails to be sailing ... but in the case of Linga that I was on eg - am I to risk grounding 300,000 tons for a yacht that can meander all over the channel with plenty of water under them ?

Sorry - but I'm getting a bit ratty with this thread .. not with you Pye_end ... but the lack of apprecaition apparent in some answers.

I pose this ... many answers are given about Colregs - based on open waters scenarios, the daft thing is most that post such answers - I believe don't actually sail true open waters .. not in shipping terms. Yes odd ones do ... but majority do not.
A yacht that can do pretty well what it likes in 4m of water is a lot different from a cargo ship drawing 10m or more ... or as in the above vessel I pic'd ~ 65ft draft ...

In open waters - I had no problem in altering course for a sail-boat ... but in a TSS .... no sorry.

I'm tired ... it's late ... I've got a bad head and I need to sleep - Monday tmrw and I need to get my Surveyors out etc. (Yep - I'm a hard task master !!)
 
Back to basics

To repeat the original question (plus in square brackets, a bit that was added/clarified later)

>A yacht is motoring across a [a TTS] shipping lane on the correct heading [which we assume to be right angles] and a cargo ship, traveling along the lane, is coming towards the yacht on the starboard side. It is clear that if neither vessel takes action there will be a collision. What is the best course of action?

In open water (ie not shipping lane) then the yacht should give way and pass behind the cargo ship. Is this the best course of action when in a [TSS] shipping lane?

Would it be better to either:
a) slow down and let the vessel pass ahead
b) Turn to port and head in the correct direction for the lane until the vessel has passed.<

Seems to me there is no hint that this already a close quarters situation.

Were it not for the TSS, then assuming that slowing down is not sufficient because the watchkeeper may not perceive it (although why not?), then rule 15 applies:

"When two power-driven vessels are crossing so as to involve risk of collision, the vessel which has the other on her own starboard side shall keep out of the way and shall, if the circumstances of the case admit, avoid crossing ahead of the other vessel". That implies a turn to stbd, as a turn to port would not neccessarily preclude crossing ahead. However the rule does not dictate a turn to stbd, only the head on rule (14) does that - "When two power-driven vessels are meeting on reciprocal or nearly reciprocal courses so as to involve risk of collision each shall alter her course to starboard so that each shall pass on the port side of the other."

However, the question is not posed in open waters, but in a TSS, when rule 10 applies (some sub rules omitted because they are not relevant in this situation).

"Traffic Separation Schemes

(a) This rule applies to traffic separation schemes adopted by the Organization and does not relieve any vessel of her obligation under any other rule.

(b) A vessel using a traffic separation scheme shall:

(i) Proceed in the appropriate traffic lane in the general direction of traffic flow for that lane.

(iii) Normally join or leave a traffic lane at the termination of the lane, but when joining or leaving from either side shall do so at as small an angle to the general direction of traffic flow as practicable.

(c) A vessel shall so far as practicable avoid crossing traffic lanes, but if obliged to do so shall cross on a heading as nearly as practicable at right angles to the general direction of traffic flow.

(j) A vessel of less than 20 meters in length or a sailing vessel shall not impede the safe passage of a power driven vessel following a traffic lane.

It seems to me that rule 10 precludes turning to stbd, because the yacht would then not be proceeding in the general direction of traffic, in other words it would be breaching the rule. Therefore we are back to two choices (three actually).

1. Slow down or stop and wait for the ship to pass ahead
2. Turn to port, with or without slowing down, and wait for the ship to overtake.
3. Hang a 180, retreat for a bit and then come back for another go.

Given that this is not a close quarter situation - when taking any action to avoid damaging life. limb or paintwork is permissible - where under colregs is the yacht permitted to turn to starboard and proceed the wrong way up a TSS lane? Apart from the 'legality' of such a turn, my prime concern is that it would put me in conflict with any following ships, which with my eye-level only about 5 feet above sea level, may not yet be visible to me.

As my view seems to be in the minority (although, not as far as I'm concerned for any cogent reasons yet) I am genuinely seeking enlightment here.
 
Re: Back to basics

The difficulty for me is that you are making a change in heading or speed due to a risk of collision (don't understand where the term 'close quarters' bit fits in with the rules?), so therefore 10 a) it seems to me always applies. If there was no risk of collision then you would still be at 90 degrees to the lane.

That is why i would always go red to red.

However I cannot really see the application of this logic to when you are crossing the other lane!
 
Re: I think I might be taking my life in my hands but.... #2

[ QUOTE ]
In open waters - I had no problem in altering course for a sail-boat ... but in a TSS .... no sorry.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't recall anyone saying they would expect that. I think you may have misunderstood my comment. I agree, a yot under sail would be crazy to expect a ship in a TSS to give way to him.

However, I have always been told that giving way when you are stand on vessel can create its own hazards and you need to take this into account when choosing *how* to give way. That is why had the boat in the original question been under sail, it should not, IMO, have altered course to stbd.

After you have had a night's sleep, I would appreciate your opinion on this.

Thanks
 
Re: I think I might be taking my life in my hands but.... #2

Here is an interesting observation:
Those who have responded and have experience of being on the larger, faster vessels are unanimous in saying that the small vessel should turn to starboard, and go behind the stern of the larger, faster vessel.
Those whose experience appears to be confined to smaller sailing boats, are varying in their often strident opinions and offering all kinds of solutions.
Why not listen to what the merchant brigade are saying that they would like to see the WAFIs do?
/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
John
 
Re: Back to basics

>don't understand where the term 'close quarters' bit fits in with the rules?<

It doesn't. I was using it (and so I suspect was sbc) to describe the point where the situation is at brown-trousers-imminent, and dodging a short time scale collision is more important that the highway code.
 
Re: I think I might be taking my life in my hands but.... #2

Look. There is confusion here.

I know these threads are hard to follow, and I made a hash of it by initially misreading the question.

But I am NOT arguing that in the circumstances described the yacht should turn to port. To me it is absolutely 100% clear that the yacht should turn to stbd and pass astern of the ship.

I am asking the advice of sbc on a different set of circumstances - when the yacht is under sail.

I am listening to the merchant brigade, but they haven't yet ventured an opinion on my question.

Also, please do not jump to conclusions about my experience. As it happens, you are wrong.
 
Re: I think I might be taking my life in my hands but.... #2

>To me it is absolutely 100% clear that the yacht should turn to stbd and pass astern of the ship. <

Why, given colregs, are you absolutely 100% clear that you should act against what colregs suggest?

And why is it 'better' for merchantmen if we go AGAINST colregs in a situation like this? Surely we are then behaving like WAFIs.
 
Re: Incidentally...

I think that is because 'ship dodging' is part of the rest of the rules, and rule 10 is no longer adhered to when a risk of collision exists.
 
Re: Incidentally...

Who sets the rules?

If rules need to be clarified or changed then who should we go to?

Seems daft to me that yacht owners and ships expect small craft to stay out of the way of big ones even in cases where this clearly contravenes the regs.
 
Re: Incidentally...

>I think that is because 'ship dodging' is part of the rest of the rules, and rule 10 is no longer adhered to when a risk of collision exists.<

Then ship dodging in this scenario is covered by rule 15 "When two power-driven vessels are crossing so as to involve risk of collision, the vessel which has the other on her own starboard side shall keep out of the way and shall, if the circumstances of the case admit, avoid crossing ahead of the other vessel." That rule doesn't mandate a turn to starboard.

I submit a 90º turn to port, to avoid a collision AND comply with rule 10 on TSS is the better alternative. I'm still waiting for someone to explain why that's wrong.
 
Re: I think I might be taking my life in my hands but.... #2

Because by turning to stbd you almost immediately cease to be a threat to the ship and you are doing the entirely expected thing - altering to pass astern. If you turn to port, you extend the time that you are a threat and have the bridge fretting about you and wondering WTF you will do next. If you don't like the idea of briefly going against the flow, then you can always slow right down or stop. The problem with this is that the difference between a typical yacht at 5kn on an erratic course and a yacht at 1kn and an even more erratic course takes a while to become apparent.
 
Re: I think I might be taking my life in my hands but.... #2

What you should have learnt is that there is no single hard and fast answer.
If you have got into a close collision situation then a turn to Sbd follows most of the Regs and will avoid the collision.
Better not to have got into that situation by taking early action i.e. slowing down.
 
Re: I think I might be taking my life in my hands but.... #2

>Because by turning to stbd you almost immediately cease to be a threat to the ship and you are doing the entirely expected thing <

Does a ship expect another vessel to turn contra to a TSS lane, in order to pass astern, and where is that action supported by colregs?
 
Re: I think I might be taking my life in my hands but.... #2

10 a) says that if you are in a collision situation then rule 10 no longer applies - ie there are no requirements to follow the direction of flow.

Therefore if one or other vessel has to take action then you treat it the same as though you were in open water. Which way would you turn if this were the situation?
 
Re: Back to basics

[ QUOTE ]
>don't understand where the term 'close quarters' bit fits in with the rules?<

It doesn't. I was using it (and so I suspect was sbc) to describe the point where the situation is at brown-trousers-imminent, and dodging a short time scale collision is more important that the highway code.

[/ QUOTE ]

Close 1/4's situation is not Brown trousers imminent ... it is when the vessels are within distance of each other that requires one or other to alter course / speed or both. Close 1/4's has been debated and argued for years by experts marinre and legal - such that no real defined statement ever issued. The problem is that it also depends on where and what circumstances .... eg vessels at 2 miles apart in open sea is close ... generally regarded as too close givewn the amount of space available ... but 2 miles in Dover straits is often not possible.

I have had a good nights kip ... and I still find the turn to port argument irresponsible - and only acceptable in exceptional circumstances.
As to Whipper-snappers possibility of sail vs power etc. - still I maintain my original comments.

For TK to say that in crossing situation - turn to stbd is nowhere mentioned ... maybe so ... I'm not going to drag out my Colregs book for exact wording ... but since time immemorial and colregs have been in place ... it has been expected and done ... turn to stbd to pass astern of vessel on stbd bow ............. why put yourself and others in danger ?

I really am aghast at the ease that alternative solutions are put ... that IMO are just daft ! Yes a turn to port and slow down will have the effect you propose ... but why confuse every other vessel around ?
 
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