I think I might be taking my life in my hands but....

This would be a lot more fun if you changed the orientation a bit.

In the case you gave it is pretty clear that a bold alteration to Starboard fully meets all obligations of Colregs.

If you consider the situation where the Cargo ship is coming from the port side it is a totally different situtation and one in which there is (IMHO) no obviously correct solution.
 
Dave: You're confusing the Colregs (which are guidelines for guidance) with hard and fast rules. There is no correct answer, just greater or lesser degrees of correctitude.

All (well, most /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif) of the people giving advice on here have been in a similar situation and survived it.

Take your pick. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
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Opinion here does still seem to vary /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

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Yes bit of a worry that. I would love to see a qualified RYA instructor/examiner comment on the threads

I think a lot of the confusion comes from the judgement of when to take avoiding action. If you did it when the ship appeared on the horizon - clearly you are wrong but if you maintain course until you are 2mls away from them (remember I try not to cross 2 mls in front of another ships bows) then take avoiding action its Ok.

Lets assume 28kts ship and for me its 7kts under motor. Turning to starboard would be a closing speed of 35kts. You therefore would "cross" after only 3 min & 26secs. Its actually longer than that as you dont keep heading to starboard as you keep aiming for his stern or just aft of the stern but I think you get the point.

Deviating for say 5 min on a 12 hr crossing is no problem and you are doing it to comply with the col regs.
 
Crossing a TSS I see no problem with a turn to port.
Consider the situation that you actually wish to turn to port to proceed down the TSS lane, a ship off to sbd could read your course change as you intended (joining the traffic flow) or as a vessel crossing but not wanting to go against the TSS flow.
Whichever way he reads it, it resolves a crossing situation and he will accept it.
On these grounds I could justify to myself a port turn.

In practice I have found that I always under estimate a ships SOA so my normal practice of holding course and reducing speed hasn't failed me . . . .yet!
 
probably most confusing is the fact that some say the same , but others want to stick to the do it this way or you're wrong routine , I still think it's safer for everyone concerned to turn to stbd then aim for a close pass astern , but what do I know /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
 
A note on merchant ship speeds, and what you can tell by ship type.

Merchant ship speeds are pretty much standardised by type of ship, so I thought this information may help others when crossing merchant ship traffic.

Let's start from the top with the fastest:

Large containerships:

These have a service speed of between 22 and 25 knots. When in the Dover Strait and Southern North Sea they will usually have a "deep sea Pilot" , from companies like Hammonds, in Dover (whom we use in my outfit) on board in addition to their regular crew. You can expect a fairly good standard of bridge watchkeeping, but remember that forward visibilty is affected by the container stack. They will call at a small number of ports - Southampton, Le Havre, Antwerp, Rotterdam, Hamburg, Felixstowe, Thamesport are typical.

If you see one of these astern of one of the ships lower down this list, you should assume that she is overtaking the vessel ahead of her - and is therefore obliged to keep clear of that ship!

Cross-Channel and cross-North Sea ferries:

Service speed 18-22 knots. These are obviously on set routes, and it used to be Coarse Yachtsman's joke, in the days before GPS, that they were a first class navigation aid to the benighted yottie! Pretty obviously, they have a very high standard of bridge watchkeeping because they are constantly crossing the traffic.

Cruise Ships:

Not the "ocean greyhounds" of yore - the modern cruise ship usually makes 18 knots - and is set up with diesel electric propulsion so that passenger services can run using the power at anchor by day whilst at night theship gently poodles off to the next destination. Again, found only between ports with "cruise terminals". The bridge watchkeeping ought to be excellent!

Smaller containerships:

Between 14 and 18 knots - notice the "lighthouse style" accomodation block right at the stern - sometimes have cargo cranes for use in small ports. Get to a much bigger range of ports. Crew fatigue is often a problem with these ships, which have small crews who work very long hours. Be a bit careful.

Tankers:

Recognisable by the hose handling cranes located about halfway down the deck. The VLCC has a totally unjustified reputation as a sort of Great White Shark, but they are amongst the safest and best run ships afloat, and they move quite slowly. Assume 14.5 knots, for all sizes. Bridge watchkeeping will be good.

Gas carriers:

Some look like tankers, but with much higher topsides, and others (with the Moss containment system) have big hemispheres rising through the weatherdeck. Usually very well run. 14-16knots.

Bulk carriers: 14-15 knots. The big sizes can be mistaken for a tanker, but you can tell by the lack of hose handling cranes. 9 hatches - Capesize - iron ore and coal - 7 hatches - Panamax - coal or grain - 5 hatches and cranes - handysize - anything - these smaller ships are the tramp ships of today. The cranes or derricks restrict the view from the bridge somewhat. Be a bit careful with the smaller bulk carriers - these ships don't always have the finest crews.

Coasters: 9-12 knots. Crew fatigue a big problem with these little ships, which can pop up from all over the place. Forward visibility may be an issue when in ballast.

Offshore oil support vessels: Usually painted day-glo orange, but can come in a huge range of sizes and shapes, and follow "unusual" courses . 10-12 knots Bridge watchkeeping should be good.

Fishing boats: "Let's not go there!"

Naval vessels will usually be poodling along on low power at merchant ship speeds; the effect on the taxpayer of flashing up the big turbines is such that they seldom go fast. And remember there is such a thing as a submarine on the surface!

Hope this is helpful.
 
Re: A note on merchant ship speeds, and what you can tell by ship type.

Thanks for very useful info. I am sure I have seen 28kts on my Raymarine MARPA system for container ships in the English Channel.

Do I need to get my MARPA checked out or a new pair of glasses!!

I note you did not comment on what way you would want to see the boat turn to avoid the ship! Any reason?
 
Re: A note on merchant ship speeds, and what you can tell by ship type.

I think your MARPA is fine and three knots is well within allowable error for a yacht set!

I will now have to "come clean" and say that:

1. I would want to make it very clear to the OOW that I had seen him, and that I was taking "early and substantial action to avoid collision" - at night I would seek to alter the aspect of my lights and by day I would want to substantially alter the aspect of the sails, eg by tacking or gybing if practical. The most nerve-wracking thing for the OOW is when he cannot tell whether the small boat has seen his ship and reacted to her or not.

2. I would try to keep in mind that the OOW may first see me some time after I have seen him - I don't really know how good my radar reflector is, or what else he may be having to worry about - for instance, he may be having to think about a ship on a collision course with him that I have not even seen.

3. I would alter to starboard and go under his stern.
 
Wow, lots of different opinions. Personally, when crossing the channel between Solent and Cherbourg (not technically a TSS, but similar principles), we have always gone for the option of slowing down, then aiming for their stern. It can be incredibly difficult to judge the speed of these big ships and since none of them have ever returned our calls on Ch16, you can never be sure they have seen/heard you.

So I would be voting on the 'turn to starboard' side if you can't just stop and wait for them to pass.
 
doesn't make it any easier for me as a novice , it seems that James has it right , it's down to the skipper to decide , although according to others he'd be shot for doing it and should stick to the book
 
Lets make it clear.

Imagine you are heading 0deg and crossing a shipping channel.

A ship is travelling at 24 kts from your starboard you are doing 6kts when he is 2mls away you decide a collision is possible.

You would be 0.6 mls away from his track. You would need to turn approx 70 deg to aim for his stern. Your course of 70 deg would quickly reduce back to the 0 deg over the next 4-5 mins as the ship passes ahead of you. There is no way anyone would consider that short alteration of course as going against the shipping lane merely obeying the collision regs as you pass astern of the boat - you are not turning 90deg to be on a reciprical course.
 
Turning to starboard purely for the purposes of crossing astern of the ship in the separation scheme is hardly analogous to this:

"The vessel remained in the lane for approximately 2 hours and travelled nearly 18 miles the wrong way up the lane. During this period Mr Koch met 21 other vessels coming down the lane and two crossing vessels. He caused 7 of these vessels to take evasive action. One encounter with a crossing vessel caused particular concern."

I'm with those who would turn to starboard. If hauled up before the beak, I would quote rule 2(b) in my defence.

"2(b) In construing and complying with these Rules due regard shall be had to all dangers of navigation and collision and to any special circumstances, including the limitations of the vessels involved, which may make a departure from these Rules necessary to avoid immediate danger."

Mark
 
Whether under power or sail I will slow down or even stop to let ships pass well in front of me and when closer I will turn towards them (occassionally I have even done a 180!) to make my intentions clear (ie that I have seen them and will be keeping out of their way - 110%).

I will concede that I am a bit cautious, outside any shipping lanes I once took a very cautious route around a ship, cursing that he seemed to be getting slower and slower as I approached. Took me a while to realise he was anchored /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif
 
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So it's OK to contravene the rule a little bit, but not a lot?

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It seems likely there is misunderstanding of the phrase in Rule 10.b.i 'A vessel using a traffic separation scheme...shall proceed .....in the general direction....' which is distorting some thinking about this. In my view, a yacht crossing a TSS is NOT USING the scheme. Consequently, this sub-rule is not relevant to the yacht in this case.

However, the following ARE relevant.....

Rule 15.j. 'A vessel of less than 20 metres or a sailing vessel shal not impede the safe passage.....'

Rule 8.c and f.i/ii/iii is applicable.....

Rules 15 and 16 are applicable....

and certainly Rule 2.a and b. also applies.....

Mirelle's guidance is absolutely right. That interpretation satisfies the Rules. It is not really a matter of one opinion versus another, and suggesting otherwise in an Inquiry by the MAIB or a Coroner is unlikely to cut any ice.

A yacht motoring - a power-driven vessel - can turn in its own length. In the circumstances described, the yacht has a clear and unambiguous 'duty to keep clear'. Making an early and substantial turn to starboard - in my practice 90º or more - ensures that the vessels' Courses stop converging, and become slightly divergent. Speed can also be reduced, in addition to the substantial change of course. That signals visibly and clearly the yacht's intention to the OOW on t'other vessel. Once the convergence or 'close quarters' potential has been resolved, one would judge when to start turning slowly back towards the favoured course - but always ensuring that did not appear as though one was re-establishing a 'close quarters' situation.

And, let's remember what we have been advised in the report on the Makhuna incident, that what we yotties might consider is an acceptable CQ distance would be 'too da***d close' by the training and experience of most ship's masters.

Campbells' 'Yachtsman's Guide To The Collision Rules' is arguably the best yottie guide to learning and understanding the ColRegs that I've encountered in 36 years of doing this.

But, hey, what do I know.....?

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I refer you to 10 (b) (i) which many of you seem happy to contravene.

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That rule 10 (b) (i) applies to vessels following the TSS ... Not to vessels crossing the TSS. So in fact does NOT apply to you, but applies to the ship.
 
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..... I am going to ask a col-regs question!

A yacht is motoring across a shipping lane (on the correct heading) and a cargo ship, traveling along the lane, is coming towards the yacht on the starboard side. It is clear that if neither vessel takes action there will be a collision. What is the best course of action?

In open water (ie not shipping lane) then the yacht should give way and pass behind the cargo ship. Is this the best course of action when in a shipping lane?

Would it be better to either:
a) slow down and let the vessel pass ahead
b) Turn to port and head in the correct direction for the lane until the vessel has passed.

I appreciate that any colregs question is likely to provoke some lively debate but would welcome your thoughts /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

David

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To me I have one guiding principle : >

Keep out of the bl**dy way of ships .... It is far easier for me to see him and keep away from him. He may not have seen me at all .. so I assume he hasn't.
I boldly act so that IF he did see me - he knows I am keeping out of his way and there is no confusion as to my intentions.

As to this situation ... it is clear anyway ...

a) Ship is in shipping lane. Lanes are provided for one reason - to keep ships in orderly fashion and safe ... others shall have good idea where to find them ! There is no point in having lanes deep sea .... but in coastal / restricted waters they are a god-send ...
b) Despite you being possibly a sailboat with sails up ... I hope you are being cautious and have engine on stby or at least running to assist ... that means if in gear - you are now motor-sailing .... so you are on his port bow - Get the [--word removed--] out of his way.
c) Shipping lanes are to be crossed at or near to right angles as quickly as possible ... that does not mean run same direction as him !! Turn astern of him in agreement with b) ... let him pass and then turn back to cross the lane ... watching out of course for the other ship that's about to carve you up !

Basically don't ar*e about ... keep clear by going around his stern ... It's funny - but in this situation - I would likely increase throttle and make sure I turn and cross well astern of him ... BOLDLY so he knows I will ....
 
I agree with SBC in that the 'wrong way up the lane' is for passage making not for vessels avoiding a collision - even the cross channel ferries go 'against the flow' to avoid a collision.

Just imagine it were night time. If you turned to std you would be red to red. If you turned to port the approaching vessel will see your stern light, and this will not necessarily show to him that he will avoid you.

I would always turn to std. in this situation and chase his stern.
 
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