I opened up my liferaft today...

I reckon I was naive when I bought my Seago ISO-9650-2 6-man raft from a chandler. I now know the service costs outweigh the original purchase price, the service will only be carried out by a limited number of centres, I have no discretion over what is done - extras I want will not be added, expensive labels will be charged, ludicrously expensive batteries will be used, a nuisance of a plastic document holder will dangle outside and I am not allowed a cord to link the 2 box halves after deployment. Basically grabbed by the short and curlies!
The idea of a raft with guaranteed life costs appeals, better still if it can be serviced locally - some carriers get upset over CO2 and flares. So what is the make of MR LIFERAFT 1's paragon?
 
awol said:
I reckon I was naive when I bought my Seago ISO-9650-2 6-man raft from a chandler. I now know the service costs outweigh the original purchase price, the service will only be carried out by a limited number of centres, I have no discretion over what is done - extras I want will not be added, expensive labels will be charged, ludicrously expensive batteries will be used, a nuisance of a plastic document holder will dangle outside and I am not allowed a cord to link the 2 box halves after deployment. Basically grabbed by the short and curlies!
The idea of a raft with guaranteed life costs appeals, better still if it can be serviced locally - some carriers get upset over CO2 and flares. So what is the make of MR LIFERAFT 1's paragon?
Click to expand...
If buying again, would you make a different choice?
 
MR LIFERAFT 1 said:
it takes years of experience to service a liferaft ...trust me it would be impossible to service it correctly without the servcie manual and valve tolerances, you need the speciasl tools and packing schedule, not to mention you cannot buy spare parts from any ligitimate source.... copy spares may seem value but not when they fail and dont work. ! We are not talking high finance to service a liferaft correctly ...let the experts do it but make sure they are what they say ......
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Do tell us who you work for?
Stu
 
MR LIFERAFT 1 said:
Im not here to sell you anything...just give you the facts , i just want everyone to get value for money which ever brand they choose and more important to make sure you service and at an approved service centre.... if your looking for a liesure liferaft choose an ISO 9650-2..... then you will have your answer.
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Is ISO 9650-2 different from ISO 9650 as discussed 2 years ago here?
http://www.yachtingmonthly.com/gear/six-iso-9650-liferafts-tested-2-34114

I think I've maybe answered my own question by finding this: http://docs.gestionaweb.cat/1254/iso.pdf
 
My Liferaft is a Seago 4 man. The last thing I would want are OEM parts (i.e. the add on bits - see #16). Some of mine were not worthy of a toy shop.

Obviously, I am going to have to put a lot of effort into checking the details of my next purchase and its life-cost. Reliance solely on ISO appears to be insufficient.
Cheers
Bob
 
This thread has pretty much got me convinced to never go near any liferaft service center!

Statements and questions from this industry (assuming Mr Liferaft 1 is legitimate) include...

" would you repack your own parachute ?
OK, we might forgive him for not knowing that in that industry its pretty standard to trust no-one other than yourself

"there are many cowboy service stations waiting to take your money..."
Yes, that applies to any industry, no reason to think there are no cowboys in liferaft servicing.

"... service it with copy parts"
Most industries try to get you to use their price inflated parts when there are many perfectly adequate alternatives. For example My Volvo engine manual says use Volvo filters and Volvo oil. Now Volvo don't make filters nor oil, they just buy them in and brand them. It will be almost certain that Liferaft manufacturers don't actually manufacture all the parts they use. It would not be economical to do so, and no-one wold expect them to.

"search for a brand that will collect your raft from anywhere in the UK and has collection points all over the UK...."
That's just advertising. It's a matter of choice for the buyer if they want collection and delivery, and that's not a badge of competence.

"Ok cards on the table...."
Where there's a vested interest, its best to say so up front, not admit it when challenged. That just degrades the credibility.

"The big problem I have is that indipendent servcie stations can service your liferaft even without the manufacturers approval or technical skill to do so...."
Car dealers try this trick too. I bought a new car from a dealer and found them to be the worst at servicing, and have, since the first service by them, and catching them out at skipping things, charging for parts not supplied etc, have serviced my car myself since. I now have only myself to blame, but know exactly what was and what was not done. So with Liferafts manufacturers they want to claim sole competence to service their rafts? Nonsense.

"it will instantly invalidate your warranty with the manufacturer when they open the raft...."
Claiming that servicing by anyone else than them invalidates a warranty is another trick apparently learned from the car servicing industry. They tries that too until it was declared an uncompetitive practice by trading standards and the competition authority.

"ISO 9000 will not give you the technical manuals and training to service a liferaft according to the manufacturers specification."
This suggests a lack of knowledge of what ISO9000 is. It's not a liferaft standard.

"it takes years of experience to service a liferaft..."
Another sweeping statement that is just not true. There will be people in that industry as in most with years of experience, and people with 1 years experience many times over. It's just not that complicated.

"not to mention you cannot buy spare parts from any ligitimate source...."
Another unfair trading practice that automotive parts dealers got found out with, and stopped.

" leisure sailing is outside the remit of the MCA.."
Really?

Actually my dealings with various liferaft servicing and sales people suggest that our poster here isn't really representative of the industry. But i read it all and end up even more sceptical about that industry all the same.
 
MR LIFERAFT 1 said:
would you repack your own parachute ?
Click to expand...

Yes, as almost everyone does in the civi jumping world (it is particularly well advised to do so if you are married to an Army PTI :)).

Is the rest of your post based on a similar depth of knowledge?
 
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MM5AHO said:
This thread has pretty much got me convinced to never go near any liferaft service center!...

"there are many cowboy service stations waiting to take your money..."
Yes, that applies to any industry, no reason to think there are no cowboys in liferaft servicing...

"ISO 9000 will not give you the technical manuals and training to service a liferaft according to the manufacturers specification."
This suggests a lack of knowledge of what ISO9000 is. It's not a liferaft standard.
Click to expand...

Years since I read the book, but IIRC The Baileys (119 Days Adrift, or something like that) had a "serviced" liferaft full of out of date stuff - like a repair kit with everything perished and unusable. I think that was the early 1970's, maybe things haven't changed too much.

I previously mentioned ISO9000. You're right, Mr Liferaft is wrong and misses the point of quality assurance.
 
I have seen a few of Mr Liferaft's posts,was intent on replying but now they are all gone....

But to answer his implicit questioning of my intelligence... I know my liferaft was serviced deficiently by two certified approved suppliers/service stations.

The investigation reports into Megawatt and Asgard confirm that the proper servicing or usability of a liferaft is not ensured by allowing a service station to do it.

I think a carefully examined and checked liferaft with a PLB and a new epirb, is better than a raft serviced by a service station that may make a complete bags of doingso and charging outrageously.

I saw an ad yesterday for a raft being sold for 200euros, it required service, the seller had taken the trouble to obtain a quote for service which was between 500euros and 700 euros. https://www.adverts.ie/boats/liferaft/14824441

A plb is 199euros https://www.chmarine.com/cgi-bin/sh000001.pl?WD=plb&PN=mcmurdo-220-plb.html#SID=1264 a new epirb is 356 euros https://www.wetsuitoutlet.ie/2018-o...1YC3qZ1IBp5Gms-KS4AILqQFSvyH2QlxoChG8QAvD_BwE


Mr Liferaft raised questions about parts and valve pressures... My understanding is that the only parts routinely replaced are batteries, pyros, sea sick tablets, food and water if supplied, the co2 is weighed and if found to be intact it is not touched.

but he has raised concerns, so Please Mr Liferaft; what pressures are tested/valve clearences etc. can you educate and inform what is done how are things are actually tested.

specifically if the co2 has not escaped or been released and if the safety indicator is still on the cylinder... is the Thanner valve removed or is this considered to be intact in the absence of external signs of injury.

a pressure release valve that is not touched or used in anger will it invisibily alter its state over time? how are these tested... etc.

obviously you would be free to disclaim any liability for any screwups etc. but in a situation where I will spend my safety budget on updated electronics, PLB and EPIRB and will carry my home examined raft together with a second sealed but out of date raft, and my out of epirb and out of date flares as a spares you just might save my bacon....Furthermore if something is amiss I will obviously have it repaired/replaced prior to sailing.
 
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Interesting post there Pandos, plenty to think about.

First thing - if I discovered a problem with a raft service I would be letting the MCA know about it.

Another thing - ask the service centre to give you the out-of-date stuff they have replaced, it's your property anyway. That would at least show they have removed it, whether they have replaced it with in-date stuff you'll never know until you use the raft, but it shows them you're on the ball.
 
penberth3 said:
Interesting post there Pandos, plenty to think about.

First thing - if I discovered a problem with a raft service I would be letting the MCA know about it.

Another thing - ask the service centre to give you the out-of-date stuff they have replaced, it's your property anyway. That would at least show they have removed it, whether they have replaced it with in-date stuff you'll never know until you use the raft, but it shows them you're on the ball.
Click to expand...

MCA has no remit over here, reporting it would have little if any effect, the defects I uncovered would not have had an effect within the 3 year service period so no action would accrue, the failures in my case were, to the best of my knowledge merely breach of contract.

the result being that the raft would not last as long as it ought...

in any case the MCIB investigates over here and you will see that the Megawatt raft was hired from the same supplier of the rafts on Asgard and the company is still in business

The receipt of out of date product would prove nothing, presumably the companies have dozens of sets of expired products...
 
A most interesrting thread.

I had just opened our 30(!) year old Avon 6 man, and it appears to be in perfect condition.

It will get inflated, bounced on, cylinder weighed etc and all the necessary bits replaced and repacked. I was beginning to think it was foolish to even try this myself, but having read what others have found, I'm no longer worried about doing as good a job as is needed.

I have to admit, the raft is probably well beyond it's service life, but it appears to be as fresh as the day it was packed. The rubber feels fresh, no sign of the glue giving way. A good bouncing on and making sure it stays inflated overnight shoudl be sifficient.
 
rszemeti said:
A most interesrting thread.

I had just opened our 30(!) year old Avon 6 man, and it appears to be in perfect condition.

It will get inflated, bounced on, cylinder weighed etc and all the necessary bits replaced and repacked. I was beginning to think it was foolish to even try this myself, but having read what others have found, I'm no longer worried about doing as good a job as is needed.

I have to admit, the raft is probably well beyond it's service life, but it appears to be as fresh as the day it was packed. The rubber feels fresh, no sign of the glue giving way. A good bouncing on and making sure it stays inflated overnight shoudl be sifficient.
Click to expand...

Do “pick” at the edges of a few glued components, especially the stability bags. I thought an ancient raft was in fine fettle until I did that and the glue just peeled away.
 
When the LR service station (Cosalt) was relatively close to us I asked them to let me know when they were going to be servicing ours previous LR, they phoned me the day before so I could be present and see it out of it’s cannister and inflated.
Unfortunately this service station has now closed so this won’t be an option with the new one as the earest service station is over 100 miles away.
 
Praxinoscope said:
. . . so I could be present and see it out of it’s cannister and inflated
Click to expand...

I think it's worth driving 100 miles to watch someone service your liferaft. Mine was vacuum packed and rep[laced perfectly in the canister with all the securing straps in place.

There is a date stamp on the inflation cylinder and after 6 or 8 (?) years, it is pressure tested and refilled.

I took mine down to Liverpool ( https://norwestmarine.co.uk/index.php/liferaft-lifejacket-servicing-liverpool ) where they have an operating theatre clean building full of commercial rafts the size of terrace houses being serviced.

It was really useful for me and the crew to sit in our raft and look at all the various bits and pieces. The bloke took his time to show us how everything worked an it only costs £60 (plus VAT) to have it serviced plus the cost of any replacement equipment. And if you're just a leisure user, you don't need to put anything perishable back in, you can put everything you need in your grab bag where it can be checked more regularly.
 
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