I hate to do this...but

[silver-fox]

Seems to me that the only future for the Rocna anchor will be if the following actions (or something similar) are followed.

1. Peter Smith revokes the current arrangement for manufacturing under licence because the design has not been followed, damage to reputation etc.
2. Craig maintains a dignified silence
3. Manufacturing is put out to a trusted brand name

That might just recover some lost ground. Other than that the future looks bleak.

It occurs to me that something of the sort might be going on behind the scenes which is why everyone is silent.

 

[Ubergeekian]

What do you mean by "if the manson results are confirmed" ?

They have posted the results certificate from a certified testing facility, what could be clearer than that?

Science is all about replication. Two reported tests on two anchors from one testing lab don't prove the case: there could be a small batch of dodgy ones, or the equipment could have slipped out of calibration, or various other possibilities. Holdfast can't really be expected to say any more than "We're looking into it" on the basis of one test.

If, however, a couple of anchors in the UK and a couple of anchors in the US were sectioned and samples tested by several labs and the results all came back the same, then - and only then - the case would be pretty unanswerable.

This is emphatically NOT to accuse you, or Manson, or the testing lab of bad faith. Since these results, if true, could potentially destroy the Rocna brand, they have to be very thoroughly checked, that's all.

 

[[55354]]

More questions

I find it interesting that the importers and distributors, who presumably make profit from sale of Rocna anchors, have not come forward to defend their suppliers.

Currently we have Manson who have stood up to be counted and Venice Lagoon as an example - but distributors, nothing?

 

[Nostrodamus]

Well Piplers are not being quiet.
They have a full page advert in this moths PBO with Rocna anchors advertised at the top of the page. In red underneath is states "ANCHOR and REST EASY".

Intresting that on the previous page is a Nylon anchor for small craft made by Coopers. Wonder which is the strongest?

 

[[55354]]

Culpability

To extend on the previous - we have suggestions of 'fraud', as expressed earlier, not proven. But if there is a failure how do those people stand who profit from the sale.

It is in the interests of the the supplier, Holdfast/Rocna and the distributors/retailers to defend their product. if an independent individual in the UK, Denmark or USA finds that the products they have been selling, knowing there are doubts - proves the fraud - what is their defence?

It is odd, considering the doubts and the accusations, that no-one has come to support Holdfast/Rocna yet the importers and distributors are happy to ignore the implications.

It might be the accusations are malicious, so why not prove this is the case, why the delay, why the reticence.

Sorry if I appear puzzled.

 

[Nostrodamus]

Currently Craig Smith is viewing this thread.
The one time we do want to hear from him there is nothing.
Craig, there may be a plausible explanation and we are willing to listen to it.
The stage is yours!

 

[Mark-1]

Currently Craig Smith is viewing this thread.
The one time we do want to hear from him there is nothing.
Craig, there may be a plausible explanation and we are willing to listen to it.
The stage is yours!

He'd be mad to fall for that rather obvious bait. Whatever he says his critics will attack it and him personally.

 

[Nostrodamus]

I am always willing to listen to both sides as they often have diffrent views.
The evidence produced to date against Rocna is compelling and difficult to rebute but we have heard nothing from the other side although they are fully aware of the allegations. Craig and his father may know nothing about what has been going on until the testing brought it up but on the other hand they may be complicit in everything.
As I said I am always willing to listen to both sides and make my own mind up.

 

[BrianH]

I find it interesting that the importers and distributors, who presumably make profit from sale of Rocna anchors, have not come forward to defend their suppliers.
Currently we have Manson who have stood up to be counted and Venice Lagoon as an example - but distributors, nothing?

They were probably as uninformed as most of us here and if reading this are as shocked as we are. As another poster comments, there's no such thing as bad publicity and if everyone keeps their heads down they may think it will all go away.

The whole original success story rested on the early production before Holdfast and Craig's constant output stream. Blue water cruisers did their bit, in good faith, to spread the word regarding new generation anchor performance.

When I bought my Rocna in 2008 it was before a significant expansion of dealers and I had to have it shipped from Holland as there was no convenient seller in Italy - now there is one in my very marina.

And as Grant King, as the then production manager, confirmed my model was NZ made when I was in contact about the galvanizing problem, I am not concerned for myself, but angry for others, especially those to whom I recommended the product and who may have bought a sub-standard one.

I also feel better about the need to get the re-galvanizing as it could have been due to the difficulty to galvanise a higher tensile steel anyway.

So, as I am currently moored a few hours away from Venice Lagoon I now know that I do not have to give it a wide berth.

 

[Mark-1]

I am always willing to listen to both sides as they often have diffrent views.

Maybe you are but almost everyone else has heaped abuse on Craig whenever he posts. He'd be mad to climb back into the bearpit.

The evidence produced to date against Rocna is compelling and difficult to rebute but we have heard nothing from the other side

That's because they've been shouted down and decided, rather wisely, to leave the playground.

As I said I am always willing to listen to both sides and make my own mind up.

I'm sure you are, but others clearly aren't.

Everyone on YBW has already made up their minds. If I was Rocna I'd be ignoring this thread and talking to potential "floating voter" customers through more traditional marketing channels.

 

[vyv_cox]

. As another poster comments, there's no such thing as bad publicity and if everyone keeps their heads down they may think it will all go away.

Mr Ratner may disagree with that point of view.

 

[Rigger Mortice]

Science is all about replication. Two reported tests on two anchors from one testing lab don't prove the case: there could be a small batch of dodgy ones, or the equipment could have slipped out of calibration, or various other possibilities. Holdfast can't really be expected to say any more than "We're looking into it" on the basis of one test.

The tests were carried out by a reputable test house and were very clear in what they found.
Racno/Holdfast have produced no valid test results whilst all this has been going on. Despite their boasts about their "robust QA" systems and despite their promise, about two weeks ago, that test results would be published.
This time they haven't even said that they are "looking into it"; they've simply gone into silent mode.
We've now got the evidence of Grant who has said what was going on and how he battled to get things done properly........ and you say that more tests are needed!!!!

Of course Racno aren't going to conduct any tests on UK or US stock. They know the answer already.
It's absolutely clear that Rocna have been dishonest.

 

[Rigger Mortice]

Everyone on YBW has already made up their minds.

And what have you decided then?

 

[Mark-1]

And what have you decided then?

This thread, and all others, haven't changed my view one bit.

I would only ever buy an anchor second hand, new prices are terrible value for something bullet proof with no moving parts.

Would I expect to see a lot of broken Rocnas littering marina skips over the next few years? No way. To all practical purposes I'm certain they're sound.

 

[vyv_cox]

The tests were carried out by a reputable test house and were very clear in what they found.
Racno/Holdfast have produced no valid test results whilst all this has been going on. Despite their boasts about their "robust QA" systems and despite their promise, about two weeks ago, that test results would be published.
This time they haven't even said that they are "looking into it"; they've simply gone into silent mode.
We've now got the evidence of Grant who has said what was going on and how he battled to get things done properly........ and you say that more tests are needed!!!!

Of course Racno aren't going to conduct any tests on UK or US stock. They know the answer already.
It's absolutely clear that Rocna have been dishonest.

On the other hand, Whaleboy's promised reporting of mechanical tests that proved Rocna anchors to be sub-standard has not appeared either. A hardness test takes about ten minutes to complete in triplicate and can be just as meaningful as a tensile test. When I was doing mechanical testing I used to machine about 30 specimens and test them all in a day. We have now been waiting two weeks or more. Could it be that his tests showed the anchor to be to specification?

 

[Rigger Mortice]

Vyv,

Yes, the Whaleboy stuff is all a bit odd. I just don't know what to make of him, it's difficult to understand what is going on there. Maybe he simply decided not to spend any money on getting tests done?
At the moment, my view is that it's no more than a bit of a sideshow.

The main event is Racno and they are being as reticent as Whaleboy!

 

[Rigger Mortice]

To all practical purposes I'm certain they're sound.

Mmmm!
No thoughts on the integrity of a supplier then?

 

[Ubergeekian]

Maybe you are but almost everyone else has heaped abuse on Craig whenever he posts.

Yebbut he hasn't exactly been sweetness and light to everyone else in the past.

 

[Mark-1]

Yebbut he hasn't exactly been sweetness and light to everyone else in the past.

In which case it's good that he's no longer posting & trying to goad him to rejoin is a bad idea.

 

[vyv_cox]

The main event is Racno and they are being as reticent as Whaleboy!

I agree fully. As a Rocna supporter to date, I find their silence damns them more each day.

The bent anchor undoubtedly tells a story. Not sure about the rusty one though: there could be many reasons for this even on a well-galvanised product. My new chain, bought from a reputable supplier, was worse than this after two seasons.

As I see the Craig issue, his outbursts have been excessive on many occasions but he was supporting a product that he believed to be first class. We have it on Holfast's assertion that he no longer represents the current Rocna management and, by inference, their current product. I find his continuing silence as meaningful as Rocna's.