I guess I must hang my head in shame

[Portofino]

I'm confused. Reading this comes across as if you're saying that Hughes 300s don't have a separate collective stick, but they do (two cyclic controls and one collective between the seats for either side to use)... Did you mean something else?

My neighbour s had a few copters and just packed up after 4000 PVT hrs .
It him over beers that that is sceptical with single controls .
He’s had a “ death egg “ the H 500 and finished up with a twin turbine something or other ......says you need to able in some tricky circumstances to be able to “ power “ your way out of trouble hence his preference to twin controls .
Not impressed with gadgets to de skill manoeuvring .

A lot Similarities with today’s boaters . .......de skilling .....helps to sell them to

I ts the same with boats imho you need to able to easily apply directional power imho with twin sticks .

 

[Portofino]

My understanding of his statement was that the H300 has also a single flight control, on top of the traditional ones.
And that his inference on crash record was related to folks unable to handle the latter.

Now, only PF can confirm what he meant of course, and even assuming that my understanding was correct, I don't know how true all that is.
But having spent quite a lot of time living aboard in my marina, I think his point is valid regardless of the chopper analogy, because I've seen all sorts of poor shows:
People unable to reverse in a berth and screaming to the marinero to push their boat with his rib, because their joystick suddenly packed up. Or using the joystick like there's no tomorrow, to the point of making the boat roll so badly, in between two other boats, to hit and damage the walkaround rails regardless of how well fendered the boats are... You name it.

Bottom line, my luddite-ness doesn't stretch to the point of suggesting that Joysticks should be illegal.
But pretty sure, it would make sense if only folks able to make do without them would be allowed to use them! ?

Yes in particular the starter H 300 and possibly others ?
The new trend of combining both controls to make it easier to learn ;

Not sure “ luddite- ness “ applies as it suggest those who can preferentially control there boats without a stern thruster or minimal bow thrusters are doing something wrong or it should be frowned upon .I,am just pushing back an that .

Think of David Beckham in his prime , picking the ball up in his own 1/2 .....no need to pass it through midfield , doing the little triangle stuff breaking the opposition down ......nope .....just pick the long pass to Van Niestolroy ( sp ) who incidentally is running at goal , facing goal and has another skill set of being able to bring David’s ball down over his shoulder with one touch them shoot .
Its all about different skill sets ,
You see it on football pitch because the blokes are stripped of gadgets

 

[NoviceRod]

Helicopters and Beckham's football skills - amazing thread drift!!!!

 

[pumpsmynads]

Helicopters and Beckham's football skills - amazing thread drift!!!!

Needs a “thread thruster“ to keep it on track

 

[Portofino]

Helicopters and Beckham's football skills - amazing thread drift!!!!

? ?
The common denominator is inherent skill and spatial awareness to park a boat without a stern thruster or fly a copter without any modern aids. To pick the pass and deliver it .All three require a certain amount of “ training “ .......but that’s completely normal and nothing usual .

 

[sorabain]

My neighbour s had a few copters and just packed up after 4000 PVT hrs .
It him over beers that that is sceptical with single controls .
He’s had a “ death egg “ the H 500 and finished up with a twin turbine something or other ......says you need to able in some tricky circumstances to be able to “ power “ your way out of trouble hence his preference to twin controls .
Not impressed with gadgets to de skill manoeuvring .

A lot Similarities with today’s boaters . .......de skilling .....helps to sell them to

I ts the same with boats imho you need to able to easily apply directional power imho with twin sticks .

I'm not sure if he was referring to auto-throttles or something. I can't see how you can collapse the cyclic and collective into one flight control in any meaningful way, too many degrees of freedom and sometimes need for major inputs (drop the collective if engine fails). I can't seem to find anything on google either. Is more common to have some kind of auto-throttle and may be what he means about needing to "power your way out".

You could use the analogy to say that you should have thrusters though -- you might be a dab hand with twin engines but sometimes need a bit extra to get you out of edge case scenarios and the "de-skilling" might be because the boater is always trying to fix the problem with fewer tools when one more appropriate to the circumstances was available (yeah this is a pretty thin argument but i'm doing my best to signal that i'm thinking about boats and not just noisy whirrlly things)

 

[Portofino]

I'm not sure if he was referring to auto-throttles or something. I can't see how you can collapse the cyclic and collective into one flight control in any meaningful way, too many degrees of freedom and sometimes need for major inputs (drop the collective if engine fails). I can't seem to find anything on google either. Is more common to have some kind of auto-throttle and may be what he means about needing to "power your way out".

You could use the analogy to say that you should have thrusters though -- you might be a dab hand with twin engines but sometimes need a bit extra to get you out of edge case scenarios and the "de-skilling" might be because the boater is always trying to fix the problem with fewer tools when one more appropriate to the circumstances was available (yeah this is a pretty thin argument but i'm doing my best to signal that i'm thinking about boats and not just noisy whirrlly things)

l will seek more clarity, on what he meant .He in the UK at the mo .
He is now thinking of getting a boat btw so is getting very bias advice from me.

 

[Assassin]

What next Sunderland flying boats?

 

[NoviceRod]

What next Sunderland flying boats?

Do they have thrusters, boathooks, and the name on the bow?

 

[petem]

I'm the last person who should be saying this but I do find names on the bow a little naff so I'm with Nick on that one.

As for boat hooks, they're pretty handy so important to have on board.

We use our Bowthruster all the time disagree on that one.

 

[MapisM]

We use our Bowthruster all the time disagree on that one.

Fwiw, I also think that the b/t is essential, in outdrives powered boats like yours, for a half decent maneuverability.
Some folks believe that they are more maneuverable than shafts boats because they allow thrust vectoring, but this is actually good only for moving the stern where you want, not the bow.

 

[petem]

Fwiw, I also think that the b/t is essential, in outdrives powered boats like yours, for a half decent maneuverability.
Some folks believe that they are more maneuverable than shafts boats because they allow thrust vectoring, but this is actually good only for moving the stern where you want, not the bow.

I completely agree. In any kind of wind I steer / vector the drives to position the stern and use the B/T to position the bow if required.

 

[John100156]

I loved my T34, hard over to port, wheel before thrust, vector thrust and blip astern brings the back in so nicely and then BT the bow in if needed, if she doesn't behave, stern coming in too quick, a little blip forward and she will stop or move out nicely. Or just aim the bow at the berth and thrust stern over (outdrives are expensive). Fantastic boat.

Mind you, I found it good every now and then to do it without the BT as the buggers do play-up from time-to-time and always when needed the most.....! Mind you some will say we don't need all these aids, it was better when we had oars and rowlocks....;-)

 

[Portofino]

l will seek more clarity, on what he meant .He in the UK at the mo .
He is now thinking of getting a boat btw so is getting very bias advice from me.

Saw him today , it’s the R22 he dislikes because it has a central H stick instead of a cyclic stick each .It has one collective between the seats with as you ( Sorobain ) suggested a “ auto power “ thing . It brings the power on automatically as you pull it up .
As said makes it easy to fly for novices, de skills it .

Hence the stern thruster analogy .

 

[Bouba]

Saw him today , it’s the R22 he dislikes because it has a central H stick instead of a cyclic stick each .It has one collective between the seats with as you ( Sorobain ) suggested a “ auto power “ thing . It brings the power on automatically as you pull it up .
As said makes it easy to fly for novices, de skills it .

Hence the stern thruster analogy .

The most prevalent de-skilling on this forum is the amount of people who need two propellers

 

[Portofino]

The most prevalent de-skilling on this forum is the amount of people who need two propellers

Would have thought those with 3 or even 4 ( the stern thruster) sit on top of the “ de skill “ pile .

Ones with only two sit at the bottom of the deskill hierarchy and the person with one prop trumps all skill wise .

Hang on toss in computers ?
My statement still stands as IPS has 4 or 5 with a bow thruster . Or is that 6 with a stern thruster ? ....prop count soon gets silly .

 

[John100156]

Making the rag and stick brigade the upper echelon, far above the deskilled single and twin screw...... runs for the hills........

 

[sorabain]

Saw him today , it’s the R22 he dislikes because it has a central H stick instead of a cyclic stick each .It has one collective between the seats with as you ( Sorobain ) suggested a “ auto power “ thing . It brings the power on automatically as you pull it up .
As said makes it easy to fly for novices, de skills it .

Hence the stern thruster analogy .

Ah that makes sense, thanks.

auto-throttle often also criticised for potentially masking carburetor icing, e.g.

https://www.helispot.be/hs/documents/heli/No-Ice-Thank-You.pdf

"When the carburettor starts to ice up, you will get a drop in RPM and a drop in manifold pressure. The ice will be building up-stream of the butterfly valve due to the venturi effect and the vapourisation of the fuel. The R22 has a very good engine governor system which will correct for this RPM drop by opening the throttle, thus masking the ice build up (refer to RHC Safety Notice No 31). The first sign of icing the pilot might get will be when the engine starts to run rough, which could mean it is already close to stopping. "

ouch