I Can’t Believe It’s Not Coppercoat!

The super-yacht industry is a small world, with a large degree of secrecy (much of it unnecessary to my mind) and confidentiality agreements the norm. There are a few examples shown on the Coppercoat website though not many, as the general website is targeted more at the more regular leisure sailor than it is the super-yacht skipper or specifier. We have a separate set of information that goes directly to such people.

But as a quick local example, the largest and most expensive Sunseeker yet built was treated with CC a couple of weeks ago. This boat is due to leave the factory shortly, but unsurprisingly won't be hanging around the UK shores for long!
 
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Neeves said:
Ewan,

If its economic to coat a 35' yacht, or a 250' superyacht - can one extrapolate to a 1,000' commercial vessel? If you are suggesting the maths stacks up in CC's favour for a Superyacht - why is there no sensible competition? Once you successfully enter the Superyacht market you suddenly become a serious player - not the supplier of a quirky (with no disrespect at all) product. You seem to be gaining real traction - so why do you have the field to yourself? I appreciate you do not know the strategic plans of International or Jotun but you are, apparently, in an enviable position. Hence the question.

Jonathan
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Conventional A/F manufacturers are rather over a barrel. If they were to market products that replicate (or improve) the copper/resin formulation, they could only do that if it were a superior product to their conventional gloop - otherwise why market an inferior product?. That would be tantamount to admitting that the conventional stuff they've been flogging us for years as the latest/greatest was actually an inferior product compared to the CC-style that's been available for the last decade or more.

Oops, sudden loss of credibility, and collapse of the market for conventional AF.
 
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I have never heard of an antifouling company trying to replicate a Epoxy Copper type product... on the contrary whenever I have talked to them at shows ect they all say longer life is wanted and under constant development but epoxy is not a resin type they consider it to be worth to do it with.
This includes International, Jotun and Hemple... I personally feel if they genuinely do get 7 years and over from one single application which it seems they do they seem to be well on their way to better products for smaller boats.
They all seem to be looking for tiny intricate degrees of control over the erosion rate which Epoxy never seems to be able to provide.
They all seem to have developed non eroding Silicone products (that would possibly have microscopic erosion if copper was added) that they are applying to big ships.

All the main antifoul producers seem to agree that epoxy resin does not erode to any efficient degree and the only erosion they may get is from the copper eroding.
(Only cynics and conspiracy theorists would say they don't do it for profit reasons)

To get any benefit from simple copper erosion you would perhaps need to have a much higher degree of copper in the resin (that they may not be not allowed to exceed ?) so the copper particles are simply stuck together with the epoxy effectively just gluing them together rather than saturating them in wet epoxy. (insulating most of the effectivness)
There already seems to be an issue with the consistency of the copper in the applied layer to the point continual mixing is needed during the rolling process to stop the copper sinking to the bottom of the roller tray. There clearly do seem to be very wet and saturated resin areas where you can see the white hull beneath due to not having much copper and other places where the copper is so heavy it seems to be slumping off. As I have said this is likely to be an issue with temperature related issue.
Are we allowed to know the thickness of the Epoxy at 10 degrees and the thickness at 25 degrees or should we just believe the resin makers claim their is no change?
I know it has a water content however the resin content must thicken as it gets cold ? Does it not derive from oil ?

Possibly if Copper Epoxy systems truly only lasted 10 years rather than 50 ( average 250 micron layer with a erosion rate of 5 microns per year) but with a much better replication of the application process and a much better weed and slime combating efficiency they really would take the market by storm rather than 3-4 different companies/variants slowly building a fan club over 20 years.

Conventional antifoulings seem to have the consistency of application with a roller sorted they also seem to be able to make longer life products so perhaps if we are all allowed to buy the 7 year antifoulings we may get a true shell, weed and slime fighting product.

I don't think that improving any products over time as technology develops is anything like admitting something could be done all along. ..... that is like saying a modern laptop computer was available when you had your Sinclair spectrum but you were not allowed to have it ! Daft statement !
It happens all the time as technology develops Micron ..... Micron Extra .... Micron Extra 2
Now with Biolux ! ect
With the impending ban on DIY antifouling application there may well be a collapse of the antifouling market as we know it anyway.

Has the resin development process of the Copper Coat product finished or are there hundreds of chemists working on the new or improved resin type ? Surly Copper Epoxy product makers must really desire a resin that worked much more efficiently but just over 10 years lets say.

Am I allowed to ask (without the fan club bighting my head off) why the Copper epoxy makers don't seem to add the known slime and weed chemicals that antifoul makers add over and above their copper. Is this a resin issue or use economical one ?
I have been told they all use about 10 -11 types of biocide type chemicals of which Copper is just one of them.
Would the addition of these known products improve weed and slime efficiency of the epoxy copper system ..
What happens if Chilli powder is added as has been suggested ?
 
Sticky Stuff said:
I have never heard of an antifouling company trying to replicate a Epoxy Copper type product... on the contrary whenever I have talked to them at shows ect they all say longer life is wanted and under constant development but epoxy is not a resin type they consider it to be worth to do it with.
This includes International, Jotun and Hemple... I personally feel if they genuinely do get 7 years and over from one single application which it seems they do they seem to be well on their way to better products for smaller boats.
They all seem to be looking for tiny intricate degrees of control over the erosion rate which Epoxy never seems to be able to provide.
They all seem to have developed non eroding Silicone products (that would possibly have microscopic erosion if copper was added) that they are applying to big ships.

All the main antifoul producers seem to agree that epoxy resin does not erode to any efficient degree and the only erosion they may get is from the copper eroding.
(Only cynics and conspiracy theorists would say they don't do it for profit reasons)

To get any benefit from simple copper erosion you would perhaps need to have a much higher degree of copper in the resin (that they may not be not allowed to exceed ?) so the copper particles are simply stuck together with the epoxy effectively just gluing them together rather than saturating them in wet epoxy. (insulating most of the effectivness)
There already seems to be an issue with the consistency of the copper in the applied layer to the point continual mixing is needed during the rolling process to stop the copper sinking to the bottom of the roller tray. There clearly do seem to be very wet and saturated resin areas where you can see the white hull beneath due to not having much copper and other places where the copper is so heavy it seems to be slumping off. As I have said this is likely to be an issue with temperature related issue.
Are we allowed to know the thickness of the Epoxy at 10 degrees and the thickness at 25 degrees or should we just believe the resin makers claim their is no change?
I know it has a water content however the resin content must thicken as it gets cold ? Does it not derive from oil ?

Possibly if Copper Epoxy systems truly only lasted 10 years rather than 50 ( average 250 micron layer with a erosion rate of 5 microns per year) but with a much better replication of the application process and a much better weed and slime combating efficiency they really would take the market by storm rather than 3-4 different companies/variants slowly building a fan club over 20 years.

Conventional antifoulings seem to have the consistency of application with a roller sorted they also seem to be able to make longer life products so perhaps if we are all allowed to buy the 7 year antifoulings we may get a true shell, weed and slime fighting product.

I don't think that improving any products over time as technology develops is anything like admitting something could be done all along. ..... that is like saying a modern laptop computer was available when you had your Sinclair spectrum but you were not allowed to have it ! Daft statement !
It happens all the time as technology develops Micron ..... Micron Extra .... Micron Extra 2
Now with Biolux ! ect
With the impending ban on DIY antifouling application there may well be a collapse of the antifouling market as we know it anyway.

Has the resin development process of the Copper Coat product finished or are there hundreds of chemists working on the new or improved resin type ? Surly Copper Epoxy product makers must really desire a resin that worked much more efficiently but just over 10 years lets say.

Am I allowed to ask (without the fan club bighting my head off) why the Copper epoxy makers don't seem to add the known slime and weed chemicals that antifoul makers add over and above their copper. Is this a resin issue or use economical one ?
I have been told they all use about 10 -11 types of biocide type chemicals of which Copper is just one of them.
Would the addition of these known products improve weed and slime efficiency of the epoxy copper system ..
What happens if Chilli powder is added as has been suggested ?
Click to expand...

I, as stated in my previous post, have used the hottest chilli powder available, for some four years with very good results.

I am also considering the epoxy option, and possibly adding chilli powder to it, but from previous posts would this be ineffective, as the epoxy would seal it from doing what it was added for in the first instance, in the same way copper is.
 
yes I have to agree, unless perhaps the chilli is combined with the copper first and then added to the epoxy resin so effectively coating the copper particles with chilli.

I have to say that I am very confident in the ability of Copper to do the job and I am confident that a copper Epoxy mixture will have some degree of copper exposure (depending on the application and weather conditions) and have a reasonable effect especially if abraded in some way. I just cant see the logic in mixing Copper with Epoxy if you are trying to get a constant and effective exposure.

I thought all the conventional antifouling makers were trying to get a better erosion efficiency to expose the copper and poisons they have in the product rather than simply adding more of the harmful stuff in to the mix.
Are they not all working to try to reduce the Copper and chemicals ?
I suppose there has to be a compromise somewhere if it washes well or more quickly and exposes the chemicals efficiently it must work better would it not ?

What we could do with are new resin types that do washing away efficiently but in a more controlled way.
I think locking 95% of the copper within an epoxy layer is not really an efficient delivery system (Just my thoughts) even if the makers say it erodes at 5 microns a year.

I know that if I use a cheap antifoul and roll a light coat on perhaps getting 30-40 microns as most of us do (rather than the recommended 50 or so) I will have washed 50-60% of that layer off by the end of a year what I always see is the roller marks where I have overlapped a coat and have more antifouling and also I have thin bits where it has almost all washed away. I can see the efficiency is very good I just need to add more antifoul or get a slower washing product with a higher copper content perhaps.

I know if I use a good layer of Micron I can easily get 1 year in Poole but it needs a good jet wash if it is to work the next year on the same layer.

In most cases why are people adding more if they have plenty ?? Just give it a jet wash to remove the leach layer as they describe it.
Is it not the case most of us are re applying antifouling for no particular reason especially if you have bought an expensive version.
I know of people who simply antifoul each year because they always have and because they like the freshly painted look.

What I cant explain and I am convinced neither can anyone else is how there are some thousands of vessels that are having a success with it... We have heard from the fan club perhaps we could get a few more people who have a copper Epoxy system to tell us the degree to which it works rather than how long they have had it for.

If I apply a good coat of a strong red premium antifoul and then two coats of a strong blue premium antifoul will this not keep working until the red layer is washing thin ?
If I jet wash it hard on lift out will it work as well (or nearly as well) as the first year ? Perhaps the antifouling makers can answer that one for us !
 
I don't think we can call anyone who's answer we don't like a Troll.

Come on It is a fair point isn't it ? Has none else ever heard of adding chilli to antifoul.

I would have thought it would wash away fairly quickly though compared to the erosion of the copper !

I have an Idea every one !!

Lets write something on top of copper system with a permanent marker pen and see how long it takes the writing to erode away !! What do you think ?

In theory the writing should disappear as the copper and Epoxy erodes away within the course of a summer season ?

Perhaps if we write on an area of high resin where it is a golden copper colour and another on a area with a high copper content (lets say where it is really green)

If the ink seals the surface (unlikely) we should then see weed growth over the writing. If it does not seal the surface we should simply see it erode away with the epoxy.
 
Sticky Stuff said:
I don't think we can call anyone who's answer we don't like a Troll.

Come on It is a fair point isn't it ? Has none else ever heard of adding chilli to antifoul.

I would have thought it would wash away fairly quickly though compared to the erosion of the copper !

I have an Idea every one !!

Lets write something on top of copper system with a permanent marker pen and see how long it takes the writing to erode away !! What do you think ?

In theory the writing should disappear as the copper and Epoxy erodes away within the course of a summer season ?

Perhaps if we write on an area of high resin where it is a golden copper colour and another on a area with a high copper content (lets say where it is really green)

If the ink seals the surface (unlikely) we should then see weed growth over the writing. If it does not seal the surface we should simply see it erode away with the epoxy.
Click to expand...

Chili as an additive for anti-fouling is regularly aired on here, and equally regularly rubbished. At least one regular member has done proper comparative trials with some areas with chili and others without, and found that chili has no effect. Reports of success are (as far as I can see) always from people who added chili to regular anti-fouling, and claim success without there being any comparative test. In other words, probably the anti-fouling on its own would have been as successful, or perhaps the chili, acting purely as fibrous vegetable matter, meant that the biocides in the antifouling were released a bit faster than normal, and hence increased the biocidal effect at the expense of reduced life of the anti-fouling.

There are excellent biological reasons to doubt the effectiveness of chili; no fouling organism is sensitive to capsaicin, the active "hot" part of chili. Only mammals are sensitive to capsaicins, so unless your problem is dolphins licking the hull, it isn't likely to affect the usual weed, barnacles, tube-worms etc.
 
There is no evidence of seven year antifouling being offered to the leisure market by the major a/f players in the near or mid-term.

There is ample evidence that Coppercoat provides seven year plus protection.

This thread should perhaps be put on hold until International, etc offer seven year products and users have had time to endorse that performance.

Until then, do not be surprised that increasing numbers of boat owners use the only proven seven year plus product available at the moment.

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Where a copper coating (is it Coppercoat?) shows patches of substrate, a mixture of green and gold, and slumps and runs it has been poorly applied, not in accordance with the manufacturer's quite exacting instructions.

If you wish to know what development is going on with the Coppercoat formulation, why not ask (as you have been repeatedly invited to do) the manufacturer directly. Don't be surprised, though, to be told that the matter is commercially confidential.

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This thread has now been declared tedious!
 
Sticky Stuff said:
I don't think we can call anyone who's answer we don't like a Troll.

Come on It is a fair point isn't it ? Has none else ever heard of adding chilli to antifoul.
Click to expand...

I'm not commenting on Sarnia's "chilli powder" conjecture.

Look at Sarnia's phrase and especially the part I emboldened: "I am also considering the epoxy option, and possibly adding chilli powder to it, but from previous posts would this be ineffective, as the epoxy would seal it from doing what it was added for in the first instance, in the same way copper is"

This harks right back to your speculation that because the copper is "sealed" in epoxy it is ineffective. I pray to God that even you have now moved on from that position so Sarnia is deliberately taking us back to square one, yet again, and must surely be trolling as there are no "previous posts", apart from yours, and those have long since been disproved.

Richard
 
Sticky Stuff said:
I don't think we can call anyone who's answer we don't like a Troll.

Come on It is a fair point isn't it ? Has none else ever heard of adding chilli to antifoul.

I would have thought it would wash away fairly quickly though compared to the erosion of the copper !

I have an Idea every one !!

Lets write something on top of copper system with a permanent marker pen and see how long it takes the writing to erode away !! What do you think ?

In theory the writing should disappear as the copper and Epoxy erodes away within the course of a summer season ?

Perhaps if we write on an area of high resin where it is a golden copper colour and another on a area with a high copper content (lets say where it is really green)

If the ink seals the surface (unlikely) we should then see weed growth over the writing. If it does not seal the surface we should simply see it erode away with the epoxy.
Click to expand...

How extraordinary, a troll, mistaken I'm afraid, see my post #166

Plus, many others have or are using chilli powder, despite your lack of awareness or knowledge regarding its efficacy.

My question regarding addition to epoxy is a genuine one, but perhaps the answer lies within it.
 
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