I Can’t Believe It’s Not Coppercoat!

L
Neeves said:
Totally incorrect, on both statements.

You are quite happy to quote at length so why not quote at length with something useful.

Repeatedly you have been asked to define the 'conventional' antifouing products of which you know that you say offer a 3 year guarantee. I am increasingly suspicious of your reticence.

Secondly you are free to query Ewan directly and summarise accurately the discussion. You can therefore probe to your hearts content those issues you feel are outstanding and then describe the results of the discussion with members of the forum here. We will be interested and we will be happy to give credit if you reveal something that was not already known.

Waiting patiently,

Jonathan
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Unfortunately he constantly ignores the repeated requests to tell us which product comes with this 3 year guarantee. I'm not holding my breath as I suspect he will continue to conveniently continue to ignore them.

I now assume he has some sort of axe to grind and has a vested interest elsewhere.
 
To be fair(?) he did mention International's Micron 66 and 77 as being a superior product (cannot recall the exact words) but omitted to mention who made the AF with the 3 year guarantee.

Possibly that's indicative of where he hones his axe.

Jonathan
 
21 pages , long way to go but we could get there.

From the internet ....... They sound very good don't they !

International Micron 66
•Top of the Micron® range – Award-winning, self-polishing copolymer technology with Biolux® SPC. (use in Salt water only)
•Outstanding multi-seasonal antifouling performance in the harshest fouling conditions
•Top rated antifouling in independent tests for maximum protection and long life
•Maximum protection even during stationary periods at the dock or mooring.

International Micron 77
Patented class-leading SPC (Self Polishing Copolymer) Biolux® technology
•Outstanding protection even in the harshest conditions
•Proven SPC technology has already been successfully used on 5,000+ commercial vessels
•Multi-season performance – one application lasts for two seasons

Jotun Sea Quantum Ultra
◾The ultimate fuel saver
◾For low activity and slow steaming vessels
◾Up to 90 months proven performance

Jotun SeaForce 90 – the budget friendly fuel saver
Fuel cost saving alternative to a budget-friendly price
Throughout the whole sailing interval, SeaForce 90 will reduce hull deterioration, friction and hence the speed loss experienced from these factors. Fuel consumption will therefore also be reduced. This fuel saving is achieved through a controlled and predictable polishing rate combined with an effective mix of biocides.

GLOBIC 6000
A high solids chemically hydrolysing SPC antifouling based on Nano Acrylate Technology.
GLOBIC 6000 offers low friction, self-smoothening, and a best-in class instant activation of polishing and performance for optimal performance from day one. The patented microfibers give GLOBIC 6000 a best-in-class mechanical strength to avoid cracking and peeling
For both newbuildings and maintenance of underwater hull and boottop for up to 60 months drydocking interval.

Hemple Globic 9000
Globic 9000 is a premium antifouling coating that delivers an outstanding return on investment over extended docking intervals of up to 90 months in aggressive waters.
 
Can we get back to the thread subject !

You don't need to be the maker to have an opinion on this or to add your thoughts on this forum unless you have a particular axe to grind with conventional antifoulings ... stop avoiding what is in your minds also !

Should the copper in copper Epoxy systems turn a green colour or stay its original golden copper colour directly after application ?.
If it stays a golden colour does this indicate it is not exposed to the water ( perhaps insulated within the waterproof Epoxy resin) ?

Your thoughts please
 
Ah !!

So the green is where the golden copper has reacted with the water and creates / converts to cuprous oxide which then creates /converts to cupric hydrochloride which is then washed away.

So the remaining copper colour is unreactive ?

So a good performing boat we should expect to be a bright green all over ?
And a less good (excuse the diction) examples tend to remain golden copper ?
Is that fair to say ?
Or are there still poor example deniers out there ?
 
Copper will tarnish whatever resin system it is used with. Some resins react more slowly than others - but having a bright copper visual effect is not a high priority for boat owners, nor I suspect Ewan. Having spent 15 years in the metallic pigment industry, primarily copper based, I think you should address your detailed technical queries direct to Ewan, whom I am sure will be more than happy to help, provided you do not require confidential information. His resin system is specific and address a specific niche market - of which few here have any in depth knowledge.

Thank you for quoting the AF that offer a 3 year life.

Possibly if you had read post No 167 you would have saved yourself a lot of criticism and engendered more support

Jonathan
 
Sticky Stuff said:
Ah !!

So the green is where the golden copper has reacted with the water and creates / converts to cuprous oxide which then creates /converts to cupric hydrochloride which is then washed away.

So the remaining copper colour is unreactive ?

So a good performing boat we should expect to be a bright green all over ?
And a less good (excuse the diction) examples tend to remain golden copper ?
Is that fair to say ?
Click to expand...

Yes, that's all true (exept new Coppercoat, unless burnished, is more of a reddish brown rather than "golden"). Various shades of green are observed, from a dull forest green to something much paler and brighter. I'm not a chemist so can't tell you what they represent. But, if it ain't green, it ain't working. (I might add that a newly-hauled boat often looks brown until it dries, when the greenness becomes more pronounced.)

Incidentally, there's a copper-clad boat on the hard near where I am now. Its copper sheeting is certainly within the green spectrum observed with Coppercoat.

Many posts ago I suggested a mechanism for Coppercoat's action which Ewan later said was spot-on.:
epoxy is permeable to water (not very, but enough);
this permeability allows the copper to react in some way;
when it does so its volume increases, blowing off the very thin film of epoxy covering it.

In other words, if this is the case, there's no need to agonise over the solubiity (or lack of it) of epox resin. It's removed by a mechanical process.
 
Sticky Stuff said:
Ah !!

So the green is where the golden copper has reacted with the water and creates / converts to cuprous oxide which then creates /converts to cupric hydrochloride which is then washed away.

So the remaining copper colour is unreactive ?

So a good performing boat we should expect to be a bright green all over ?
And a less good (excuse the diction) examples tend to remain golden copper ?
Is that fair to say ?
Or are there still poor example deniers out there ?
Click to expand...

I'll take your question in good faith and explain what happened to my boat.

When the Coppercoat is first applied it is the classic copper-reddish colour. After a few weeks in the sea the Coppercoat which is above the water and which gets slopped with waves intermittently goes a mottled green colour. The Coppercoat which is below sea level appears to be a darker colour than the original coating but it is a uniform colouration. However, when you wipe the hull in the water or have it pressure washed in the yard it becomes clear that a lot of the darkness is the result of slime which builds up on the Coppercoat if the boat is standing still for some time.

If you sail the boat a lot of this slime washes off although not all of it - perhaps in rough seas with a lot of bashing through the waves it would all come off but this year, our first summer of CC in the Med, we hardly saw anything greater than a ripple!

When the boat is out and pressure washed all the slime is removed and the below waterline are has a uniform copper colour. I think that the copper colour is slightly darker than it was before it was launched - more brown than red - but I can't be sure.

Richard
 
We need to take care here not to confuse Coppercoat with any other copper/epoxy product. They are all different, so generalising is, largely, pointless. It is possible that the boats Sticky Stuff saw had Coppercoat, but equally it is possible they had one of the failed systems (failures mainly attributed to the use of flawed resin technology).

When Coppercoat is freshly applied it is dark brown. But when it is immersed it slowly changes colour to dark green. This change can take anything from just a few weeks to several months, depending on factors such as water temperature, salinity, etc.

If you see a boat on the hard with a dark green hull but a few brown patches it is likely to be a boat that has been recently repaired. It is not unheard of for people to damage their anti-foul as the years pass, so touching-up does happen. Of course, these fresh brown patches then change to green when the boat is relaunched.

Back to a point Sticky Stuff raised, our resin is nothing like the one you currently use (which sounds like the sort of resin used in bonding, glueing, laminating and so forth). You would see no great change in consistency with our resin whether used at 10 degrees or 30. The only change is that the water evaporates faster at the higher temperature, so the cure rate is quicker. So as an extreme example, when treating steel ships in the Middle East, when the ambient temperature can easily be 40 degrees and the substrate even hotter, the applicators need to work fast, and tend to treat the boats in small sections at a time.

Of course, here in Europe we have no such worries, so we don't bother with "fast" and "slow" hardener options. The one standard version is fine for all.
 
On the topic of long life conventional anti-fouls, they most certainly do exist as pointed out by Sticky Stuff. Plenty of super-yachts use systems such as Micron 66 and can get two seasons or so out if it. But, it's not cheap and you need to put plenty on. And by my standards, 2 or 3 seasons doesn't cut it as "long life" anyway. I prefer to talk in decades, not seasons.

Interestingly we just quoted to supply Coppercoat to another large super-yacht, and the full treatment of CC came to slightly less cost than the treatment from International. All being well, the International treatment should last 2 or 3 years. But all being equally well, the CC treatment should last at least a decade.

And with the CC system having been available for 20 years, not just the last few, it is more proven. Which is great for us and helps explain why we are making such progress in the super-yacht world. While you may think it's expensive to lift a 35ft yacht every year, just imagine the costs to repeatedly dry-dock a 250ft motorboat! Compered to the cost of being in a dry dock for several days, the cost of the paint itself is of nothing.
 
The boats I looked at were not repaired all three had a varying state between green and golden brown all over .
There were clear differences between each roller stroke across the whole surface of each boat, 2 were quite stripy and one looked to have been more evenly applied.
There is an obvious higher and lower concentration of copper across the whole surface of each. Some areas it is possible to see the white hull below and others the copper concentration is far greater especially in the areas where the resin appears to be sagging and running.

I am sure application technique must be the cause of the difference and unevenness of each boat I saw.

Please don't only jump on the positives things I might mention and reiterate them but I have to agree to some extent with the theory that the copper particles could provide a path way for water to get into the epoxy.

I am quite sure that any epoxy maker will know their water permeability weather they choose to share it is another question. I do believe that most epoxy resins cant be described as totally waterproof however I think they are in the high 95% region so for this reason the copper would need to be providing a water path.

Most epoxy osmosis people talk of between 250 and 300 microns of resin to ensure waterproofing because the variation of the waterproof qualities.
I have heard epoxy osmosis prevention system providers warning about leaving any roller hairs of long fibres in the rein to avoid creating water paths that could allow osmosis within the layer .
 
Ewan,

If its economic to coat a 35' yacht, or a 250' superyacht - can one extrapolate to a 1,000' commercial vessel? If you are suggesting the maths stacks up in CC's favour for a Superyacht - why is there no sensible competition? Once you successfully enter the Superyacht market you suddenly become a serious player - not the supplier of a quirky (with no disrespect at all) product. You seem to be gaining real traction - so why do you have the field to yourself? I appreciate you do not know the strategic plans of International or Jotun but you are, apparently, in an enviable position. Hence the question.

Get the stripping of old conventional AF off older yachts on a sensible footing in Australia and we will join the queue of yachts to be treated. But without the strippers, or with the current costs of stripping (when I last checked) we, in Australia, do not enjoy the financial incentives of your customers in the UK.

Jonathan
 
Neeves said:
Get the stripping of old conventional AF off older yachts on a sensible footing in Australia and we will join the queue of yachts to be treated. But without the strippers, or with the current costs of stripping (when I last checked) we, in Australia, do not enjoy the financial incentives of your customers in the UK.

Jonathan
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Do you not have blasters in Oz? This is the common way of stripping here, but costs if you have an iron keel are well over £1k for a 35' boat. However, many people strip the AF manually - good recent thread by yngmar doing this on a Bav 40 Ocean to keep cost down and then DIY application of CC.

For information my new 33' boat cost £3.5k which included the handling charges in and out of the shed. Not difficult to justify on economic grounds if it does last as well as predicted.
 
OK, the points about how long any epoxy Epoxy Copper system lasts (if it stay attached to the surface it is applied to) is valid and I really don't believe there is anyone on this forum or anyone with a brain who really doubts it.
I for one truly believe a 250 micron layer will last hundreds of years and more without any human intervention (ie sanding).
If you have your home pathway done with an Epoxy resin and shingle .... how long does that last...
The main question is how well does it prevent fouling over any period ..... just a 10 year period will suffice ....

We can see by the International, Jotun and Hemple data that they have products that last for 90 months or 7.5 years with I suspect a good efficacy ,they also seem to claim tens of thousands of applications to prove it.

How big is a Superyacht and are we allowed to know how many of these so called superyachts have had a copper coat system ?
Of these now many still have it ?
 
Sticky Stuff said:
21 pages , long way to go but we could get there.

From the internet ....... They sound very good don't they !
Click to expand...

No - not particularly. Not sure why paying nearly 3 times the price of a conventional antifoul to get twice the life is a particularly good bargain. (Micron). These products have been on the market for several years and do not seem to have made much impact.

The Jotun and Hempel products may well be worth consideration for some applications, but neither are aimed at the type of boats and the market represented on this forum.
 
Sticky Stuff said:
How big is a Superyacht and are we allowed to know how many of these so called superyachts have had a copper coat system ?
Of these now many still have it ?
Click to expand...

There is no set definition of a super-yacht, though the most commonly used is a figure of over 100ft. Virtually all use copper based systems - most are paint based, by some are epoxy based.
I've not heared of a single Coppercoat-treated super-yacht revert to a conventional paint system, but by writing that publically I'm sure someone will now come along and prove me wrong!!!
 
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