How to speed up a schooner?

[andromed]

I'm checking out a 46 ft, 30 ton, 2-mast schooner which I really like because of her solid build (thick steel hull, small hatches, strong stays etc.).

However, she has turned out to be extremely slow even in favorable winds and sea, going rarely over 5 knots at all. Furthermore, she needs constant sail changes when wind speed varies, since too much sail quickly results in a weather helm.

I wonder whether this can be improved by changing her rig, and would like your opinion on that.

The current sail plan: foresail is either a genoa or two jibs, between the masts she has a staysail and a fisherman, on the main mast a regular main sail.

I'd like to throw out the two smaller sails between the masts in favor of a large full batten "main" sail on the forward mast (the forestay on the main mast is not statically necessary).

I hope to achieve the following effects:
- more sail area in general
- more sail area in front, therefore less weather helm, I have to reef main sail on the main mast later
- better continuous airflow between genoa and the new "main" sail

Do you think that this will work? If yes, could you make an educated guess how much speed could be gained?

Thanks for any input,
Andreas

 

[Norman_E]

46 foot, and 30 tons is going to equal slow however it is rigged unless it carries a truly enormous sail area, its a simple issue of sail area to displacement ratio. It is a very heavy displacement for a boat of that size.

The weather helm is another issue, indicating that some of the sail area is in the wrong place.

I wonder if it is for sale because it does not sail well?

 

[ccscott49]

30 tons! Jeeze, I doubt she will ever be fast! But a "fisherman" or even a "collywobbler" might be the thing for you.
But at 30 tons in 46 feet, is a bit like sailing in jelly. or was said about an old norwegian rescue boat "she sailed like a cow in a bog".

 

[ValleyForge]

Here's a nice schooner, similar length, but probably 1/3 weight of yours.
Jenny Norman


Bigger tin top'sl might help. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[KenMcCulloch]

I concur with the panel. I used to sail a 72' cutter-headed bermudan ketch with a displacement of - I think - about 35 tons, so by comparison 'your' schooner has only 2/3 the waterline for a similar displacement. I doubt there is anything sensible you could do to improve this; stepping some taller masts to allow an increase in sail area would be one way but would have stability implications. It sounds poorly designed to me and I would look elsewhere.

 

[Seagreen]

Again, I think I agree with the panel that you need a vastly increased rig size to get you moving. She was probably built for a safety minded singlehander. Is there no way of lightening her? Over ballasted, or just too much steelwork below which can be removed and replaced with plywood?

Posting a side-on picture would be a help.

 

[andromed]

Yes, she was definitely built for a safety minded singlehander. That's what I like about her. And I failed to mention: the 30 tons are completely equipped and loaded, tanks full etc.

And of course she will never be (nor have to be) fast! I'd only like to achieve "normal" sailing behaviour. The 5 knot sailing was with a hull that hasn't been cleaned in three years and was quite grown over with algae of various kinds.

So I hope to gain 1 knot by cleaning the hull, and if I could get another 1 to 2 knots by changing the rig I'd be happy enough. I try to put the picture here:

 

[ValleyForge]

Looks lovely, interesting website re : voyage thru' NW passage. I wonder why she was given a schooner rig - downwind trades sailing ? A conventional ketch rig might make her handle more neutrally which is probably what you really want. In mast roller reefing for the (aft) main might make trimming easy, although many complain of the reliability of such devices.
One imagines a purchase is hard to resist ... Good luck

 

[ccscott49]

She's a lovely looking vessel, You may have to put up with the speed for the safety and comfort she will provide. If you turned the fore mast into a boomed mast and fitted a gaff sail to it, you would pout a lot more forward sail area and consequently effort forward.

Just looked again, no way you could fit gaff, but you could fit a big sail and a fisherman, which you have, that would help.

 

[Seagreen]

[ QUOTE ]
The 5 knot sailing was with a hull that hasn't been cleaned in three years and was quite grown over with algae of various kinds.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah! The obvious problem... : /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Ok so a clean hull may well get you an extra 2-3 knots, which is a lot more achievable. You still may also have some excess ballasting and tankage you could trim down.

However, the next and easiest, possibly cheapest solution is to tune the rig properly. I'm fairly sure that with older sails, they will have lost their shape a bit, and maybe the masts aren't set up to advantage. There are some quote quick tuning fixes that cost nothing but time with a spanner and pliers. The big genny may be out of shape (can be re-cut as a quick fix), and perhaps- certainly from the photo- it looks like the mainmast is bent slightly forward thus bagging the bunt of the sail in the middle and killing the flow of air over it.

So, for cheapness;

1) dry boat out next to a quay and scrape and antifoul hull.
2) set masts up properly - get a sailmaker to come out with you or at least someone who understands sail trim.

That may get you an extra 3-4 knots.

Then, re-cut or renew sails. (pricey)
And think about that hull structure (even pricier)

And maybe folding or feathering props (still pricey)

But my guess is a clean hull and some rig trimming will cost you no more than the antifoul and a few beers for help. If that gets you 4 knots, you'll regard it as a bargain.
/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[Norman_E]

I actually think a 2 knot gain from a good hull clean, plus a rig tune up is all that is really going to be achieved. Such a heavy boat is going to be hard to make any faster, but on long passages even a 1 knot gain on average speed cuts passage time significantly. The issue of weather helm still needs addressing, and it might be worth considering whether the existing masts could be changed round, thus converting to staysail ketch rig. The big mainsail being cut down to fit the shorter mast might mitigate the problem, but an expert yacht designer would be needed to calculate whether it would be advantageous.

 

[Simes]

Don't panic, Schooners really are very complex vessels to sail, even with four sails all working together is complex.

Start at the front when trimming, get the headsail right then the stays'l then the fisherman and last the main.

You always have the option of setting more sail area on a schooner, it is one of the major attractions for me, lots of rope and cloth.

Get the hull clean, and try again, you will love it.

Simes

 

[Bajansailor]

Re weather helm, I like the idea about changing the masts around, and converting her into a ketch.
You would have to cut down the mainsail a bit, to fit on what is now the foremast.

But you could then put a bow sprit on, with the taller fore mast, and have the genoa out on the end of the bowsprit, and perhaps the foot of the staysail at the stemhead.
Although you would need two new head stays, and probably a new larger staysail - unless that staysail currently between the masts will fit where the fore staysail is currently (and it looks like it might).

Even if you keep the schooner rig, a bowsprit will still get the centre of effort of the headsails further forward, which will help a bit re weather helm.

Oh, and you will be amazed how much extra speed you will get from having a clean bottom - for a hull like this with considerable wetted surface area, just a layer of slime on the bottom will knock at least a knot off your speed.

 

[KenMcCulloch]

She's a good looking boat though it is an unusual rig. The idea of turning her into a ketch is interesting but you would need to create new mast steps in the right places, it's not just a question of swapping the two masts and setting a boom on the mizzen. Where the mainmast is now looks too far forard for a ketch mizzen. You would save a lot of grief by getting someone who knows the maths to do some proper rig calculations but it may just be a question of getting the existing rig properly set up.

One of the advantages of a ketch or schooner for singlehanded or short handed sailing is that none of the sails are terribly big so easy to handle but it's pretty normal to have to alter the sail plan to balance the boat when the wind changes. That's one reason they are so popular for sail training, as there's always something to do!

 

[Seagreen]

The weather helm situation may mean she is a bit overpowered, or once again, points to the whole rig needing a tune. Echoing the sentiments of others, I'd do nothing other than clean the bottom and get an expert sailmaker on the boat in a breeze for his honest opinion, then decide how and where you want to spend any money.

 

[andromed]

Thank you all for your opinions and ideas - I really appreciate it.

I will be able to sail her next spring (with a freshly cleaned hull) and I'll have a sailmaker/rigger look at her.

Best regards,
Andreas