How to choose a boat , what to look for

[Portofino]

Ok fess up who’s had a test drive in the mo Bo before buying , I mean a proper run out .
1- Sunsseker portofino 35 …nope bought it from Poole assumed it’s a Sunseeker so must be ok . 2005 .
2- Itama 2014 …older and wiser learnt a lot .Emphatic yes Naples to Capri and back in F6 .They gave me permission to WOT it .Also run in all points ( sensible speeds ) over the 2/3 M waves I was trying to get it to slam .
Loverly soft dry ride the opposite of the S/ Skr .

 

[julians]

My argument is you can have both , not sure why folks get so polarised and entrenched on this ride comfort sea keeping thingy every time I bring it up . Then like PeteM dismiss it because it’s pancake flat at the mo .

you are correct , you can (sort of ) have both interior space and sea keeping, but you'll end up compromising on something else - possibly purchase price, fuel economy, length overall , resale value, depreciation not having a dealer nearby etc etc. But if you're happy to have even more of one (interior space) at the expense of the other (sea keeping) then why shouldnt you be free to make that choice? what suits one person wont suit another, and its a good job there are lots of different options out there to suit all needs and budgets.

Its all down to how the individual uses their boat , how much they want to spend , and therefore what suits them best. There is no outright BEST boat, its shades grey, loads of different factors influence what boat someone buys, and obviously having a hull that can hold 40 knots through a force 5 is not that high up a lot of people priorities otherwise we'd see many more of them out and about.

Having said all that, IMO it is a very nice thing to drive a boat that goes well through a chop, and a decent hull is something I (currently) look for and would (and do) prioritise over some other factors - I dont think I could go back to a slammer having had boats with capable hulls for a while now.

 

[MapisM]

not sure why folks get so polarised and entrenched on this ride comfort sea keeping thingy every time I bring it up .

Because it's nowhere near as relevant as you pretend it is, maybe?

After all, the overwhelming majority of planing boats produced and sold are akin to floating caravans, while Ferretti struggles with Itama moulds gathering dust. Mind, other producers of similar boats are not doing any better, in fairness. Also because (particularly in the US), center console boats with big outboards, even faster than Magnums et all, are nowadays much more attractive, in more ways than one.

Regardless, the crux of the matter is that when the sea is rough, even with the best hull on the planet, you are NOT cruising in comfort, you are just withstanding the ride. And most if not all boaters have a different idea of boating for pleasure. It's that simple.

BTW, I'm sure you know that very well, because when you talk of 2 to 3m waves, it's one of the two: either...
1) you are lying to yourself when you say that your boat (or any other for that matter) can keep cruising fast and comfortably in such sea state, OR
2) whatever measurement tool you are using, it's in desperate need of calibration.

 

[petem]

BTW, I'm sure you know that very well, because when you talk of 2 to 3m waves, it's one of the two: either...
1) you are lying to yourself when you say that your boat (or any other for that matter) can keep cruising fast and comfortably in such sea state, OR
2) whatever measurement tool you are using, it's in desperate need of calibration.

Indeed, I'm intrigued by what he means by 2-3m waves.

 

[Portofino]

2m is approx the height from trough to crest of a tall bloke .
3 M same guy with a toddler on his shoulders .?.

Its the period the distance between them that matters and the direction you motor relative to them .
Dangerous ones imho are when it’s beam on and you sit a trough unable to see over each side .Even way out at sea it’s unnerving never mind close in with typical Med traffic etc .In those I ride up to the crest for a peak .
Head on its just a roller coaster so safe from a vis pov .The boat cuts through the peaks and lands softly no crashing about .It can cruise comfortably the 23 * dead rise comes into its element .
Cuts slices through as opposed to being lifted and dropped .But enough bow flair and indeed bulbousness to the bow never stuffs going into , up the next one …..what the guy said for point 1

I remember on your del trip from Sicily to Sardinia you posted a vid of a head sea about 1/2 way across of your boat rising and crashing and eventually you bailed out ( the human comfort thingy ) and turned around .

An Itama 60 with 1300 V 12 Hp mans mid mounted eq size to your DP 58 would have carried on. No bow stuffing no crashing .
Or older I 54/56 the same hull ex bathing platform brought in the measurements.
As would a magnum or Otam .


Once you have experienced a boat very similar to the GW ( the vid ) like Julian’s Windys , which are a great example, afternoon chops in the Med or unsuspecting bigger seas despite every App on the planet saying otherwise it’s just adds to pleasure .No endurance slogging thingy MapishM infers .If your boats vastly different hull wise from those 7 reasons then sure a chop or big sea makes it miserable.I know have had one remember and realise a lot end up marina bound when the wind / waves get up .

Take a Camargue 50 circa 2002 one of the last Don Shead designs for them .Legendary seakeeping it’s no guess work .
I know that from talking to guardians , who have to run them to the marina to the lift etc and other sea trail work .
Rivarama 44 another great hull ,but poor layout inside if you want to cruise a lot .Windys need no introduction.

Theres plenty out there the “Goldilocks porridge “ recipe is no secrets it’s available to all .

Sarnico , Alfamarine , XL , Tornado , Otam are just a few more .

 

[Bouba]

The hull? A smart person first looks at the tank....

 

[vas]

I'm impressed by your courage to discuss this issue, I've nothing to say on that...

HOWEVER, I do remember at some point back in 2010 discussing with the owner of a Italcraft Aermar 36 f/b that I went to have a look to buy (didn't as docs were missing and it was a heap) who explained that at 30kn he steers by the trimtabs only and doesn't touch the wheel. Do you also do that or was it specific to this boat I wonder?
Mind it had some fancy rudders and quasi surface props (IIRC)

V.

 

[Portofino]

I'm impressed by your courage to discuss this issue, I've nothing to say on that...

HOWEVER, I do remember at some point back in 2010 discussing with the owner of a Italcraft Aermar 36 f/b that I went to have a look to buy (didn't as docs were missing and it was a heap) who explained that at 30kn he steers by the trimtabs only and doesn't touch the wheel. Do you also do that or was it specific to this boat I wonder?
Mind it had some fancy rudders and quasi surface props (IIRC)

V.

Tabs just adjust the bow angle and thus by lowering it softened the ride even more as more V gets it first .
It the excess deadrise which stress at speed, it’s set overcomes the rudders effect .They turn and just create drag .
If you slow down they start ie there forces start to turn the boat .This is because the hulls deep deadrise slower starts to act less of a huge single rudder it’s turned into at speed .
The helm response is inversely proportional to speed and there’s a zero in there somewhere for helm as the speed numbers increase .

Its no issue once you know what to do ie slow it in traffic incase you have to take sudden evasive action .
Lower deadrise boaters don’t see it. A typical FB plastic fantastic floating apartment with a 12 * deadrise ( nice mid cabin btw ?) tonking along at 24 knots need not worry , but he will for ever twitching at the wheel making course corrections , there will no
” set “ so to speak .The hulls sliding all over the shop under him .Slight puff of wind or wake and the boats veered off .


Here’s a 46 going eco slow , even at this speed the hulls got enough arrow set , no need to keep hands on the wheel .
But should he move the wheel it will turn at circa 25 26 knots- est btw ? Perfectly safe .
Rome - Sardinia and back last week . Relaxing 1700 rpm for V 8 s as well .

 

[vas]

Sorry, didn't explain properly. The guy was saying that he'd lower port tab to list and turn to stbrd (and vice versa)
That is what I'm wondering!

V

 

[Portofino]

Sorry, didn't explain properly. The guy was saying that he'd lower port tab to list and turn to stbrd (and vice versa)
That is what I'm wondering!

V

Yes that works a bit it curves , long curves but no good for avoiding others , CoL regs avoidance manoeuvres.

Yes Amarti got owners feed back on the unresponsive steering at speed thing and being an engineer type came up with a moveable rudder bar under the bathing platform that could be raised or lowered .Lowered to get more surface area in and thus more usefulness in turning force to overcome the knife V hull which turns into a giant rudder at speed “ set “ .
Thing is motors got more and more powerful as did the same hull speed so more and more time was in the difficult higher speed steering zone .
Wasn’t prepared to drop the deadrise , guess had the mould + plugs etc .
I will find some pics .

 

[Portofino]

@ Vas here . He dropped it after a decade or so . The 46 could be had with V12 MAN s as well as stock V 8 s and Arnesons .
The Arnies only gained a few knots over this below . As you can see as well as dipping them in you could lift them right up .

 

[MapisM]

I remember on your del trip from Sicily to Sardinia you posted a vid of a head sea about 1/2 way across of your boat rising and crashing and eventually you bailed out (the human comfort thingy) and turned around.

The old saying about not letting the facts get in the way of a good story springs to mind.

This is the thread and video you are referring to, and the actual circumstances were as follows:
1) we had quartering/following seas, not head seas.
2) the waves were steadily above 1m, with the odd 1.5m, but not more.
3) the boat felt like she could have handled also worse conditions, and the fact that the video was made holding a mobile by hand gives you an idea of how much crashing and slamming we suffered, even with a miserable flybridge boat.
4) I had zero reason to turn around and I didn't - if anything, what I would probably do in those conditions now that I know the boat much better, is keeping a bit higher cruising speed, somewhere between 24 and 26 kts, rather than 20/21.

That said, we decided to cross (the Adriatic BTW, not from Sicily to Sardinia, but that's irrelevant) in those conditions only because, in a whole 1200 Nm trip, that day we had onboard a couple of friends who had to take a plane, and we knew that we were going to have the sea behind us anyway.
BUT, would I have done that with a 3m head sea? Not a snowball's chance in hell.
And anyone pretending that it would have been a walk in the park with an Itama or whatever, obviously has never even remotely experienced what a sustained head sea with fresh 3m waves really means.
Which I only did once with my old trawler, thanking God that I was onboard her, rather than on ANY planing boat.
I put it down to youth mistakes.

 

[kashurst]

After 6 boats the first thing I look for is engine bay access. Can you get at everything fairly easily? If so it will probably have been looked after correctly.
Then who made it and when.
Then have a look at the hull design. As Mapism posted they are all some sort of compromise, most people are not looking to cross the Atlantic in a race.

 

[MapisM]

Here’s a 46 going eco slow , even at this speed the hulls got enough arrow set, no need to keep hands on the wheel.

'Course not, he's on autopilot!

BTW, interesting to see the typical nasty seas Itama owners are used to afford with no sweat, and in great comfort.
Not sure that with a pontoon boat the ride would have been much worse, but... Hey-ho!

 

[MapisM]

most people are not looking to cross the Atlantic in a race.

Bingo.
And interestingly, the boats used by those who actually do (like FB used to, RIP) couldn't be more far apart from Grady White or other similar toys.
Their design is in fact much more modern and radically different - unsinkable, self-righting, stepped hull, proper anti-stuff bow, and so on and so forth.
Saying that some of Ray Hunt principles can still be found in them is true, but akin to saying that the Concorde was inspired to the Spirit of St.Louis just because both were built to fly!

 

[Portofino]

After 6 boats the first thing I look for is engine bay access. Can you get at everything fairly easily? If so it will probably have been looked after correctly.
Then who made it and when.
Then have a look at the hull design. As Mapism posted they are all some sort of compromise, most people are not looking to cross the Atlantic in a race.

Yes I agree with ER access .It’s the next place for me .It’s a show stopper if like you I see built in neglect building up .
So the SIBS for me is waste of time .
All skirted well the Sunseekers were .Secondly ER hatch taped off “ sorry sir H+S and all that can’t go in there “

Cannes + Genoa you can .The static element of Genoa bears all below the WL .

 

[Portofino]

Bingo.
And interestingly, the boats used by those who actually do (like FB used to, RIP) couldn't be more far apart from Grady White or other similar toys.
Their design is in fact much more modern and radically different - unsinkable, self-righting, stepped hull, proper anti-stuff bow, and so on and so forth.
Saying that some of Ray Hunt principles can still be found in them is true, but akin to saying that the Concorde was inspired to the Spirit of St.Louis just because both were built to fly!

How useful , usable are they as cruising boats in the Med .
You keep taking things to extremis like “ Concord “ Tell you what you take in 1996 all the concord fleet and try and run a business with them .Me I ll take a 737 or Airbus paint them orange so folks can tell which planes are who’s .
Fast fwd to 2005 and see if my easy jet business is still running and how many planes I operate .
You concord is still a mach 2 plane crossing the Atlantic and further .Mine do 2 hrs max ish and only go 450 mph .
But I am carrying more peeps to more destinations.

Those 7 reasons stand .The vids self explanatory.They can be found in lots of boats .

 

[markc]

I was following the recent Thunderchild 2 record attempt from London to Monaco. (BTW Its Hull looks nothing like anything in the sales video at the beginning of this thread) , and from all accounts Safehaven build some incredibly fast and seaworthy hulls. However, I'm not sure I'd want to ponce around the SoF with the compromises that come with that type of hull. I want the cup holders / prawn griddle / big TV / fancy interior please.

 

[Portofino]

I was following the recent Thunderchild 2 record attempt from London to Monaco. (BTW Its Hull looks nothing like anything in the sales video at the beginning of this thread) , and from all accounts Safehaven build some incredibly fast and seaworthy hulls. However, I'm not sure I'd want to ponce around the SoF with the compromises that come with that type of hull. I want the cup holders / prawn griddle / big TV / fancy interior please.

It’s a cat and I agree too extreme for med use .You are inside all day as it designed to go through waves dip in them .Very wet ride .
VESSEL REVIEW | Thunder Child II – Demonstrator high-speed patrol boat for all weather conditions - Baird Maritime

Poor VFM ?
BTW France helices are just outside La Napoule .Worth popping in next time you are near the little PVT airport .
They do all sorts in the public trade counter , anodes , shafts props , cut less bearings , rudders shaft seals etc etc .

Mapish will be along now claiming my 737 / Airbus planes in the easy jet business model need replacing with something like this because it’s a Mach 3 jobbie and therefore cos it’s faster better ? Or something along those lines .Not convinced on passenger payload though .

 

[julians]

I was following the recent Thunderchild 2 record attempt from London to Monaco. (BTW Its Hull looks nothing like anything in the sales video at the beginning of this thread) , and from all accounts Safehaven build some incredibly fast and seaworthy hulls. However, I'm not sure I'd want to ponce around the SoF with the compromises that come with that type of hull. I want the cup holders / prawn griddle / big TV / fancy interior please.

I was going to ask portofino what his view is on the relatively new (well I guess they're not really new,but newly popularised) style of twin step, plumb bow,no flare on the bow,very narrow entry style hulls?

They look very different to those Grady white more traditional hulls in the video.