How to choose a boat , what to look for

[DAW]

At the risk of sounding controversial, I'm not sure I entirely agree with some of the comments above ... particularly on the current popularity and "safety" and comfort of open boats.

I was in St Tropez most of last week where there are plenty of 40-60 foot open sports boats in the marina, most without guard rails on the foredeck. While there were a good number of classic Itamas, Magnums, etc. and plenty of new and old Rivas of all sizes, there were even more of their modern equivalents from Wajer, Pardo and others. One section of the marina is now almost entirely full of these boats operated by day-charter companies. While some have enclosed, walk-around side decks, others do not, and few have any kind of meaningful guard rails on the foredeck.

On Saturday, the sea conditions were best described as somewhat challenging ... sustained 10-15 knot winds from the S/SE with gusts to 25 knots and wave heights of up to 1m. This did little to reduce the number of open boats heading out for the day packed with laughing, happy guests. We joined a convoy heading into the waves at speeds of up to 20 knots on our way to spend the day in one of the many beautiful and well-protected anchorages, before heading back at the end of the day in similar conditions.

My point ... supporting those made by Porto in a round about kind of way ... is that these boats are well designed for their intended purpose ... to get where you are going quickly almost regardless of the sea conditions, and to serve as a mobile swimming/sunbathing platform for the day. They are stylish and look good, but not at the expense of seaworthiness. They are popular in areas such as St Tropez, Corsica and Sardinia where the sun almost always shines, but winds are strong and conditions are often far from benign. They are not built to the same standards of "safety", practicality, cruising comfort, etc. that you would look for in a mid-size flybridge, so it is not really fair to make this comparison.

 

[julians]

there were even more of their modern equivalents from Wajer, Pardo and others.

Those Wajers (Wajer Yachts ) look like they waste huge amount of space ,in the smaller models at least . They're not my kind of thing at all, and they dont look like they would handle the sea too well either, quite a low deadrise number (but at least they publish it, unlike many other manufacturers) , although I appreciate that deadrise isnt the be all and end all of sea keeping ability..

Fjords (Fjord Motor Yachts UK | Be Unique (fjordboats.co.uk) ) are mega popular in majorca - they look good to me from a usability point of view, having a lot of usable deck space plus some overnighting capability, but I have no idea how well they go through the water.

Another popular boat round my way is Frauscher (Frauscher Boats - engineers of emotions since 1927 ) , there are two moored directly either side of me. These are less appealing to me, they seem to have little usable deck/outside space despite their overall dimensions, and again I have no idea how well they go through the water, they look narrow for the length so I assume they have a highish deadrise and might be pretty good through a chop

 

[Portofino]

At the risk of sounding controversial, I'm not sure I entirely agree with some of the comments above ... particularly on the current popularity and "safety" and comfort of open boats.

I was in St Tropez most of last week where there are plenty of 40-60 foot open sports boats in the marina, most without guard rails on the foredeck. While there were a good number of classic Itamas, Magnums, etc. and plenty of new and old Rivas of all sizes, there were even more of their modern equivalents from Wajer, Pardo and others. One section of the marina is now almost entirely full of these boats operated by day-charter companies. While some have enclosed, walk-around side decks, others do not, and few have any kind of meaningful guard rails on the foredeck.

On Saturday, the sea conditions were best described as somewhat challenging ... sustained 10-15 knot winds from the S/SE with gusts to 25 knots and wave heights of up to 1m. This did little to reduce the number of open boats heading out for the day packed with laughing, happy guests. We joined a convoy heading into the waves at speeds of up to 20 knots on our way to spend the day in one of the many beautiful and well-protected anchorages, before heading back at the end of the day in similar conditions.

My point ... supporting those made by Porto in a round about kind of way ... is that these boats are well designed for their intended purpose ... to get where you are going quickly almost regardless of the sea conditions, and to serve as a mobile swimming/sunbathing platform for the day. They are stylish and look good, but not at the expense of seaworthiness. They are popular in areas such as St Tropez, Corsica and Sardinia where the sun almost always shines, but winds are strong and conditions are often far from benign. They are not built to the same standards of "safety", practicality, cruising comfort, etc. that you would look for in a mid-size flybridge, so it is not really fair to make this comparison.

Agree .
I ve been around St Trop bay many times , in the Sunseeker albeit a Porto35 ( actually 37 ft ) and the Itama which is bigger .
Its does cut up , wind down the bay and turning the corner to Pampolone and returning is as you say a challenge.
A lot of folks in these trendy new things Julian’s mentions Wajers , Pordos , Van Dutch Frauchers etc end up dropping off the plane and the folks return shaken , stirred and soaked . We just power on through
Its the same in most Med haunts .
Lerin islands too , Afternoon white horse trip back , both Dir , either Antibes or La Nap .
Naples area for the islands Capri etc .

Those 7 reasons in the opening vid are universal found on many , but as PYB says older boats the newbies don’t know anything about what the GW guys suggest start at the hull .
As I have said in previous threads they ( boat shows ) even skirt off the hull and invite you upstairs.

I mean I hear on here a lot of Solent boaters rowing over wake, seems to cause all sorts of issues for a lot from what I read .
If your boat to quote Bullei doesn’t “ leap “ then it’s a none issue .

Similarly in busy areas like St Trop or where ever the multiple wakes just confuse the sea state even more .Infact sometimes I wonder if is not the wind or shoals creating waves it’s the bun fight / Piccadilly circus of wakes going every direction .But you have to get through it .

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

I think they made a hand full Mag 70 s something like 4 ish ? Itama 75 are in the mid twenties and counting .

If I remember well Pegasus is number 11. The blue yellow one was a 2003 was a no.10.

They had reportedly number. 12 under construction in around 2013/14 but was cancelled, hull was being made by Lyman Morse as buyer wanted a full high end Carbon-fiber build.

 

[MapisM]

If you like hull design - enjoy .I think they made a hand full Mag 70 s something like 4 ish ? Itama 75 are in the mid twenties and counting .

I've yet to see a video where Bulleri isn't impressed by the boat he's testing, whether a Magnum or a Beneteau, and anything in between.
So, it's not surprising that he didn't mention the classic deep vee rolling at low-ish planing speed, even in remarkably calm conditions.
Something they obviously forgot to edit out, at around 50" of the video.

Ref. hulls built, mid twenties for the 75 sounds very optimistic to me, since I have it on good authority that they struggled to get any orders even in the last few booming years - also for the smaller Itamas btw, not just the 75. And even if true, that's not a number worth writing home about, considering that the model has been around for 14 years by now...
In fact, there's one and only reason why FG didn't sell the brand yet, and it's that nobody is interested to buy it.

 

[Bouba]

In an age of stabilization, a hull needs only to be functional...be it roomy, fast or whatever

 

[Portofino]

I've yet to see a video where Bulleri isn't impressed by the boat he's testing, whether a Magnum or a Beneteau, and anything in between.
So, it's not surprising that he didn't mention the classic deep vee rolling at low-ish planing speed, even in remarkably calm conditions.
Something they obviously forgot to edit out, at around 50" of the video.

Ref. hulls built, mid twenties for the 75 sounds very optimistic to me, since I have it on good authority that they struggled to get any orders even in the last few booming years - also for the smaller Itamas btw, not just the 75. And even if true, that's not a number worth writing home about, considering that the model has been around for 14 years by now...
In fact, there's one and only reason why FG didn't sell the brand yet, and it's that nobody is interested to buy it.

You widen the chine flats to counter rolling as the dead rise increases .Read the book it’s all there .
Ray Hunt design etc .There’s nothing magic it’s all calculated.

Too wide chine flats and it’s gets stiffer at speed ( No roll ) and slaps , makes a noise .You don’t feel anything just hear the slapping.
As the GW guy said “ Goldilocks porridge “ GW sell huge numbers btw .Smaller price point than Itama and Magnum Otam and the like .
Itama 75 s are €4 Million so scarce and arguably exclusive .FG have totally integrated the production into the Pershing line @ Forli .So where’s the pressure to sell off the brand .Aside Luca Montemezola has one .A red 62 .
The number was relative to the mag 70 , over 2 x and still in production.Niche I know .Not sure what point you are trying to make belittling the numbers .Pershing are on hull #5 with the 140 and @ €25 million a pop you ain’t gonna see many .
Theres one in my marina BTW fwiw .

Still see new ones about like here of La Sepzia last month .
A 45 S , with a 22 degree deadrise and Cummins …..what’s not to like ?


Gets choppy there reminded me of the waters around St Tropez .

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

Ref. hulls built, mid twenties for the 75 sounds very optimistic to me, since I have it on good authority that they struggled to get any orders even in the last few booming years - also for the smaller Itamas btw, not just the 75. And even if true, that's not a number worth writing home about, considering that the model has been around for 14 years by now...
In fact, there's one and only reason why FG didn't sell the brand yet, and it's that nobody is interested to buy it.

SeventyFive is at hull number 28. Consider it very good for a lot of reasons. Since 2012 FG have hardly marketed Itama, with very little or no changes to the models.
62S is at around #40, last I checked they where at 38. Same for the 45/S is at forty.

As for nobody interested you are very mistaken, and I know for a fact four persons who went to buy it.
These four are not your average Joe and all have decade experience in boat building or refitting.
There are two problems why it did not sell; one the price they are asking, and two is that they went to sell Mochi with it, and whatever you say that is for no negotiation.
I know that a certain buyer actually was very close to the asking price and just because he did not want Mochi the deal fell through.
Also an information that I was told is that FG have tripled the price of the sale from 2015/16, which includes the molds the documentation and nothing else.
Currently Itama is selling about ten to twenty boats a year, which for them is a happy number considering that they spend just a penny on the brand.

As for the rolling on Itama and Magnum we have to understand that both hulls are typically wider to your average Deep-Vee boat and to help them in this they have actually little to nothing upper structure.
I was on an Itama 45 some years ago, berthed next to an old Princess 45 (15 deg deadrise), old 55 (same deadrise), and Princess 58 at 17 degrees. Guess who was rolling less on anchor....
Yes deep Vee is not your best call if you want to go slow speeds in beamy seas, hence why the first generation Hunt Bertram's never got nice reviews about fishing in beamy seas, that is why Hatteras who coming from the flatter Carolina hulls experience made easy in-road in there market in the mid sixties, even though the Bertrams where always the better boats.

Also if you understand Bulleri in between the lines, you know when he likes something or not. He tries to bring a positive in the review, and I still think they are the best around, followed by Capt. Steve.
The rest are a kind like Influencer type videos....

 

[Chris H]

SeventyFive is at hull number 28. Consider it very good for a lot of reasons. Since 2012 FG have hardly marketed Itama, with very little or no changes to the models.
62S is at around #40, last I checked they where at 38. Same for the 45/S is at forty.

As for nobody interested you are very mistaken, and I know for a fact four persons who went to buy it.
These four are not your average Joe and all have decade experience in boat building or refitting.
There are two problems why it did not sell; one the price they are asking, and two is that they went to sell Mochi with it, and whatever you say that is for no negotiation.
I know that a certain buyer actually was very close to the asking price and just because he did not want Mochi the deal fell through.
Also an information that I was told is that FG have tripled the price of the sale from 2015/16, which includes the molds the documentation and nothing else.
Currently Itama is selling about ten to twenty boats a year, which for them is a happy number considering that they spend just a penny on the brand.

As for the rolling on Itama and Magnum we have to understand that both hulls are typically wider to your average Deep-Vee boat and to help them in this they have actually little to nothing upper structure.
I was on an Itama 45 some years ago, berthed next to an old Princess 45 (15 deg deadrise), old 55 (same deadrise), and Princess 58 at 17 degrees. Guess who was rolling less on anchor....
Yes deep Vee is not your best call if you want to go slow speeds in beamy seas, hence why the first generation Hunt Bertram's never got nice reviews about fishing in beamy seas, that is why Hatteras who coming from the flatter Carolina hulls experience made easy in-road in there market in the mid sixties, even though the Bertrams where always the better boats.

Also if you understand Bulleri in between the lines, you know when he likes something or not. He tries to bring a positive in the review, and I still think they are the best around, followed by Capt. Steve.
The rest are a kind like Influencer type videos....

I would have said Porto had stolen your log in……….but I understood most of that ?

 

[Portofino]

I would have said Porto had stolen your log in……….but I understood most of that ?

Haha .If you return to post #1 the opening vid ..l stress again Sorrenson , the GW guy is not me .

Its called “convergence”.

Folks start off at different points and eventually after working it out , “ it “ being seaworthiness in this case arrive at the same point .

Anyhow latest crop of Pershings are selling FWIW and pretty well developed by FG .Even the more mature like yours are turning into classics .For those who elect for surface drive hassle .The modern ones have load / EGT gauges so the driver can balance them better with one eye on motor longevity.

 

[Portofino]

Those Wajers (Wajer Yachts ) look like they waste huge amount of space ,in the smaller models at least . They're not my kind of thing at all, and they dont look like they would handle the sea too well either, quite a low deadrise number (but at least they publish it, unlike many other manufacturers) , although I appreciate that deadrise isnt the be all and end all of sea keeping ability..

Fjords (Fjord Motor Yachts UK | Be Unique (fjordboats.co.uk) ) are mega popular in majorca - they look good to me from a usability point of view, having a lot of usable deck space plus some overnighting capability, but I have no idea how well they go through the water.

Another popular boat round my way is Frauscher (Frauscher Boats - engineers of emotions since 1927 ) , there are two moored directly either side of me. These are less appealing to me, they seem to have little usable deck/outside space despite their overall dimensions, and again I have no idea how well they go through the water, they look narrow for the length so I assume they have a highish deadrise and might be pretty good through a chop

3.15 onwards answers the bow Q .

 

[Chris H]

Haha .If you return to post #1 the opening vid ..l stress again Sorrenson , the GW guy is not me .

Its called “convergence”.

Folks start off at different points and eventually after working it out , “ it “ being seaworthiness in this case arrive at the same point .

Anyhow latest crop of Pershings are selling FWIW and pretty well developed by FG .Even the more mature like yours are turning into classics .For those who elect for surface drive hassle .The modern ones have load / EGT gauges so the driver can balance them better with one eye on motor longevity.

Luckily I think I got it right first time with my boat and what we want from it, I couldn’t go through swapping boats like I do cars.

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

In an age of stabilization, a hull needs only to be functional...be it roomy, fast or whatever

It is an age where most boat builders market boats in lake type water or in a marina.
for example Google Princess Yachts Pictures, and all promotional photos which came up are in flat water.

Reality is a tad different because, when I used to go out in weekends, I might have had only a day or two of flat water in a whole Summer.
The flat calm day only happens once or twice a year here in the Central med. That is the exception not the rule.
Also I just came from a cruise (not a lot of nm this year just about 200) and the flatter sea I got was 70 cm wave, up to 1.20 m.
It's no biggy, what I am saying is that the flat seas shown in the brochure exist very little.