How should I get knotted?

[Steve_Bentley]

As a novice with a limited knowledge of ropework can I ask what is the best way of tie-ing onto a neighbours cleat, with the middle part of our line (not an end) when rafting-up?

Last time, I tied onto our bow cleat with a bowline, took the line to my neighbours cleat and as I didn't want to pass the whole length of line around their cleat (and other lines were already tied on to the cleat, so I believe best practice is to pass your own line under theirs?), I chose to make a bight and use the whole bight to make another bowline (ie with doubled-up rope) then back to our stern cleat. It occured to me after leaving the boat that bowlines can occasionally fail in which case as none of the rope actually passed over the cleat we would have come adrift. Sensibly I should have taken off all the existing lines, tied mine around the cleat then put theirs back?

What is the best way of of cleating in the middle of a length of line from a viewpoint of 1) ease, 2) holding strength.

I know this is a basic question but we all have to start somewhere (preferably without losing a boat!). Sorry if I've forgotten if the line is a 'spring' or not! It occurs to me I'd need the same solution if I wanted to tie the middle part of a long painter around a very tall upright pole (too high to drop a line over) and didn't want to pass the whole length around the pole. The 'bowline on a bight' in my book of knots wouldn't work as it assumes you can drop part of the line over the top of the pole/post.

Many thanks,
Steve

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[A_7]

It is best to have one rope for each job and not use one long rope as a bow line and spring. If you do it make adjustments difficult. IMHO.

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[john_morris_uk]

Agree wholeheartedly. There isn't a best way as most would recommend using separate lines for each job. It can be argued that its only since the days of marinas with floating pontoons (where you obviously don't have to tend your lines with the tide) that people have got into the habit of using one line to knit their way round the boat.

I believe that the line you are referring to is a spring.

Of course lots of people get away with all sorts of things - so it isn't always best to copy what others do! Enjoy your sailing and boating safely. Perhaps the best thing is to watch a lot of other people, talk to a few, and then find what works best for you. Personally I also dislike using bowlines for tying to rings on docksides - you can't get it undone if load comes onto the line, whereas you can always get a round turn and two half hitches undone.

Non so opiniated as some who go sailing

Perhaps this is why my wife wrote 'more rope more rope' when she gave me a Pilot book as a present years ago...? (It was followed by 'more Gin more Gin!')

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[steve_cronin]

Personally, I don\'t rate midships cleats...

..except for attaching the initial mooring strop on a finger pier or springing off the stern when the prop wants to walk you on.

Proper fore and aft springs are vastly superior both in effectiveness and comfort. Set 'em tight as piano wire with the breastropes just holding her parallel.

Steve Cronin



<hr width=100% size=1>The above is, like any other post here, only a personal opinion

 

[brianhumber]

Re: Personally, I don\'t rate midships cleats...

I agree, you could be using mine oneday. They are now beefed up but soon after I bought RH the girls on watch gybed her at 2am in the morning midchannel and the preventer pulled the cleat right out of the deck. No backplate fitted so four enlarged holes where the nuts and washers came through the inner,foam and top deck!!

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[tcm]

when rafting, i really think good practice dictates that

1) you must not touch their lines/knots at all - especially don't start undoing and redoing their lines.
And,
2) you must make it so that they can clear you off their boat fairly easily, without boarding yours - so you mustn't pass your lines through the "eye" of their cleats, for example, and nor are big blimmin bowlines on bights really acceptable . In extremis, if your boat is on fire, i want to get you clear if you are rafted to me, and quickly. okay, okay, this a bit extreme, but your lines shouldn't need a degree in ropework to undo if all you have is their bleary-eyed crew the next morning: you should release the tension at your end on your boat and they just unhook.
and
3) once set, you mustn't be utterly dependent upon on the cleats of the boat to which you raft. You should have long lines to the shore to actually "hold" you in any blow - the lines to their cleats are simply to stop relative movement to that boat. Again, in extremis, the cleats on his boat are his - so he's perfectly free to unscrew them in the night if he feels like it (okay, okay, bit extreme!) but if that means you drift off, tough shit, should have had lines to the shore cleats supplied by the marina to whom you paid the overnight fee. You can't complain if his cleats fall off is a good maxim.
and
4) Bowlines (not on bights) take up less "cleat space" than a round turn and 2half hitches on densly-populated shore cleats/bollards.

so
a) Lash the boat to the raft, then use longer lines ashore as main lines holding you to the pontoon.
b) on shore bollards, dip the eyes, and use a bowline if space is limited.
c) for lines to their boat, give them a way of clearing you off. This means a spliced loop to thyeir cleats, or a bowline hooked over their cleat, or a figure of eight over their empty cleat, or a simple "loop around the cleat" return line to your boat. All these can be cleared by the boat to which you raft.
d) long ends to the lines should be on your boat, bad form to makem nicely on your boat, then have the knitting and bights ashore or on the boat to which you raft. But for a teporary lashup.

I wd use othher means rather than have a bowline on a bight, really, except as first temporary lashup. But even so, you don't need to drop the line "over" a pole to make one, tho can't easily explain here...

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[Clive_Rigden]

- Knew I should have taken up stamp collecting instead !

<hr width=100% size=1>Clive Rigden

 

[maxi]

One line for each task, Brownies and Cowboys may get away with one rope for everything, but perhaps they are not too reliant on their lines.

Pass the bowline to your neighbours boat, and always keep the means of line adjustment on your own boat, i.e at your own cleat. That way, if they have problems, they do not become your problems.



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[Steve_Bentley]

Thanks for the suggestions and extra things to think about!

I've heard a few negative things about bowlines but got raised eyebrows from others when I relate the comments. Sailing seems to attract both the very helpful and the very unhelpful/opinionated (thankfully the latter group is much smaller, and none of course visit here!!).

Just for the record, we did also have shorelines (so we wouldn't have actually drifted off) but thought that would muddy the point. I was only really concerned with the rafting springs.

In essence my line was a vee with the ends on our boat and and the point of the vee on my neighbours cleat. Your various comments seem to suggest that the ends should have been on our neighbours cleats and the vee (and slack) on ours (?).

I'll certainly try to stick to that for next time. The point was made to talk to others at the pontoon (although you do get the odd colonel who thinks if you have to ask advice you shouldn't be on the water!), and I appreciate you chaps letting me ask you also!

Thanks again,
Steve
PS still intrigued by bowline on a bight not needing to pass over pile/pole/cleat but around it..../forums/images/icons/smile.gif

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[tcm]

Re: v on neighbours boat

forgive me, you orig post said you made a bowline on a bight on their boat, which should be avoided imho.

No prob with return line (v on their boat) returning to yours.

Others make a good point about separtate lines, each doing one thingone line doing one thing: this would concur with the idea of it being an easy task, for them to help unhook you on departure.

I may have come across a bit dogmatic, and you're right that some seem to want all this as "cut and dried" as though there is a right and a wrong way, but in fact it seems to arise from the fact that they aren't (or don't want to) thinking through the actual circumstances.

So, varying circumstances include massive tide or not, the likely duration of the raft (overnight, just few hours in calm weather), who's got who's spare superlong lines, which boat is brand spanking new and hence a bit sensitive and so on.

Usually, it's doable, and always better if the rafter and raftee aren't over-military in how things should be done/not done: the rafter decides where he wants the lines, the raftee agress provided it doesn't bugger his boat or rely entirely on his cleats overnight in wind. But colonels abound!


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