How Safe are Windows in the Hull

[Supertramp]

I don't think I'd want a boat that required periodic refixing of hull windows, even if the period was twenty years. It sounds like a major pain in the arse, with the prospect of terrible consequences if you don't do the job right. When your sails get old, the boat doesn't rapidly fill with water.
I know there are thousands of boats like this out there, happily sailing around, but many of their owners also put up with other expensive maintenance requirements that I wouldn't want to have to deal with.

Now that the problem (degradation of adhesive) is becoming apparent, you could take steps to slow the degradation with a paint or other layer on the window edge to reduce UV penetration.

Most aging boats will have some problems appearing (think keels, chainplates, decks). The Dufour 35 was one of the first hull window boats I can recall from over 50yrs ago. They seem longlasting and well built and window problems not talked about much.

The significance of these defects will vary depending on how the boat is used. However I agree with you that for offshore all weather sailing I would avoid anything that could jeopardise the hull and structure integrity (or I would adjust the build spec to increase integrity). Which I think is what builders like Garcia and Sirius do. Interesting to know if they plan beyond 20 years life.

 

[Pye_End]

I don't think I'd want a boat that required periodic refixing of hull windows, even if the period was twenty years.

The reason for the thread is for a 10 year old window, so. We don't know why it happened, or whether it is possible to test/see the failure in the making, but caution would suggest therefore an under 10 year maintenance plan.

I wonder if a 'refix' will necessarily be made to a similar standard as an 'original'. Ie. how do you ensure a decent quality? Some of the hull windows you see are relatively low down on the hull, so something that you would really want to be 100%.

 

[Pye_End]

Its certainly no worse that saildrive maintenance every 6 years or so, and thats an enormous hole on the bottom of the hull.

No direct experience of a saildrive seal, but when they fail do you end up with a weep, dribble, or gaping wide hole?

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Now that the problem (degradation of adhesive) is becoming apparent, you could take steps to slow the degradation with a paint or other layer on the window edge to reduce UV penetration.

Most aging boats will have some problems appearing (think keels, chainplates, decks). The Dufour 35 was one of the first hull window boats I can recall from over 50yrs ago. They seem longlasting and well built and window problems not talked about much.

The significance of these defects will vary depending on how the boat is used. However I agree with you that for offshore all weather sailing I would avoid anything that could jeopardise the hull and structure integrity (or I would adjust the build spec to increase integrity). Which I think is what builders like Garcia and Sirius do. Interesting to know if they plan beyond 20 years life.

The difference between you and the likes of Garcia designing windows, openings and hulls is that they are far more likely to know what they are doing and how it will affect other structures, after all they employ professional marine architects.
adjusting the build spec sounds like a boy racer of the 60s shoehorning a V8 into a Triumph Herald and ignoring the rest.

 

[Supertramp]

The difference between you and the likes of Garcia designing windows, openings and hulls is that they are far more likely to know what they are doing and how it will affect other structures, after all they employ professional marine architects.
adjusting the build spec sounds like a boy racer of the 60s shoehorning a V8 into a Triumph Herald and ignoring the rest.

My boat came with windows but I have exercised my irresponsibility by fitting suncovers and hatchcovers which has greatly reduced the UV damage to woodwork and plastics inside. Seems like simple science.

Agree about the judgements of good quality builders although they would be kidding themselves if they thought they never got it wrong.

 

[Malish]

My boat came with windows but I have exercised my irresponsibility by fitting suncovers and hatchcovers which has greatly reduced the UV damage to woodwork and plastics inside. Seems like simple science.

Agree about the judgements of good quality builders although they would be kidding themselves if they thought they never got it wrong.

remember it wasn't that many years ago that some 'quality' builders were fitting seacocks which were (as I recall) ISO compliant, which meant they were good for 7 years... and possibly not many more beyond that...

 

[Fr J Hackett]

UV damage really shouldn't be a problem as there are many adhesives particularly the polyurethane ones used in the auto motive aero industries that are designed for and have very good and long lasting resistance to UV. Either a trim piece or black section overlaying the bonded area will give permanent protection also.
No one has yet manufactured anything that at some point one or more of the production will fail due to either design or manufacturing error, it's something we have to live with. For some that will mean inspecting their windows periodically others will not buy a boat with them.

 

[capnsensible]

I hope that none of the tens of thousands of boat owners of vessels with portlights read this thread. Coz no matter how many have sailed seas and oceans with absolutely no pr9blem, it may sew the seeds of doubt.

Or not.

 

[Wansworth]

My boat came with windows but I have exercised my irresponsibility by fitting suncovers and hatchcovers which has greatly reduced the UV damage to woodwork and plastics inside. Seems like simple science.

Agree about the judgements of good quality builders although they would be kidding themselves if they thought they never got it wrong.

Yachting in a very minor industry so I certainly wouldn’t dismiss the idea that actually there was limited scientific application and thought to yachting design

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Yachting in a very minor industry so I certainly wouldn’t dismiss the idea that actually there was limited scientific application and thought to yachting design

I am sure the marine architects who spent years studying will agree with you.

I will have a bet with you that more boats have sunk due to poor fixings of their garboard planks than have sunk due to windows popping out.

 

[Wansworth]

I am sure the marine architects who spent years studying will agree with you.

I will have a bet with you that more boats have sunk due to poor fixings of their garboard planks than have sunk due to windows popping out.

You may well be right but I have seen yacht construction problems solved by intelligent un certified craftsmen,

 

[Fr J Hackett]

You may well be right but I have seen yacht construction problems solved by intelligent un certified craftsmen,

Yes I have seen problems on machines solved by cack handed fitters and operators all for it to go tits up when their Bouberesque fix blew up.
Your experience of boat manufacture in the 60s /70s? is a long long way away from todays practices, materials and methods have evolved.

 

[[194497]]

Its certainly no worse that saildrive maintenance every 6 years or so, and thats an enormous hole on the bottom of the hull.

That's exactly the kind of expensive maintenance requirement I was thinking of!

 

[wonkywinch]

Saw a new Dufour 41 in Brixham today. It looked like it had huge windows but according to the brochure, only a small area of those dark panels are actually windows ..



Dufour 41 sailboat

 

[Concerto]

The idea that yacht designers get everything right first time and permanently is a fallacy. Also yacht builders are not highly profitable to enable them to do long term testing of new materials or practices, they rely on the material suppliers own testing. In the period of glassfibre boat building, there have been many successful builders who have also gone bust, some a number of times. This still applies today to both yacht and motorboat builders. If modern boat windows fail after 2 of 3 decades, it will be highly unlikely that the manufacturer will still be in business. This certainly should concentrate the mind to their long term responsibilities, but allows them to basically ignore any long term problems and say the poor design idea is a maintenance problem.

 

[Wansworth]

The idea that yacht designers get everything right first time and permanently is a fallacy. Also yacht builders are not highly profitable to enable them to do long term testing of new materials or practices, they rely on the material suppliers own testing. In the period of glassfibre boat building, there have been many successful builders who have also gone bust, some a number of times. This still applies today to both yacht and motorboat builders. If modern boat windows fail after 2 of 3 decades, it will be highly unlikely that the manufacturer will still be in business. This certainly should concentrate the mind to their long term responsibilities, but allows them to basically ignore any long term problems and say the poor design idea is a maintenance problem.

Your being subversive

 

[Marsali_1]

Saw a new Dufour 41 in Brixham today. It looked like it had huge windows but according to the brochure, only a small area of those dark panels are actually windows ..

View attachment 196050

Dufour 41 sailboat

View attachment 196052

It's said that beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but, to my eye, the only thing that would make this boat look worse would be to attach two folding outriggers and/or a balcony. I don't understand why some people want to go to sea in a tiny flat. There's not a handhold in sight below so I'd be more concerned about human projectiles exiting the cabin via the windows in rough seas than I would water entering due to a failed bond with the hull.

 

[Tranona]

It's said that beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but, to my eye, the only thing that would make this boat look worse would be to attach two folding outriggers and/or a balcony. I don't understand why some people want to go to sea in a tiny flat. There's not a handhold in sight below so I'd be more concerned about human projectiles exiting the cabin via the windows in rough seas than I would water entering due to a failed bond with the hull.

I think you will find that people who buy such boats have no intention of sailing in situations such as you describe. It is clearly designed for short term performance sailing in relatively benign conditions then being a waterfront apartment the rest of the time.

Give the designers and builder the credit for knowing what their customers will buy which may well be very different from what you might buy.

 

[Wansworth]

It's said that beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but, to my eye, the only thing that would make this boat look worse would be to attach two folding outriggers and/or a balcony. I don't understand why some people want to go to sea in a tiny flat. There's not a handhold in sight below so I'd be more concerned about human projectiles exiting the cabin via the windows in rough seas than I would water entering due to a failed bond with the hull.

 

[lustyd]

which may well be very different from what you might buy

Although realistically almost nobody does buy those other boats, and I would hazard a guess that Marsali isn't in the market either so no wonder their thoughts are ignored!