How much longer will sales of boats with internal combustion engines be allowed?

[flaming]

Although not yet legislated for, the UK government wants sales of ICE cars to end in 2035.
Ban on petrol and diesel car sales brought forward.

In practice I suspect that few manufacturers will launch new ICE cars in the years leading up to this, so we could be less than 10 years away from ICE car sales being a small niche and electric cars predominating. And then it being increasingly hard to get fuel from 2035, maybe before if the demand really starts to fall off.

What do we think this means for boats? You'd sort of assume that it would follow the same time frame in terms of the legislation. But there probably wouldn't be the same manufacturer lead switch.

And then, what do we think sailing will look like once new boats with diesel engines are not being made? How long before it becomes very difficult to get fuel in out of the way places? And then how long before the marina fuel barge is a thing of the past? I suspect marinas would welcome this.... End of a lot of logistical and staffing issues, safety and environmental concerns etc, all replaced with selling electricity to every berth, probably via smartphone login etc.

And what do we think boats designed from the start to use electric power would look like? Much difference? The first thing that occurred to me was that if you are using electric drives there is no reason not to have 2 props, one in front of each rudder on a modern twin ruddered design. That would have quite a big effect on manoeuvrability. And they could easily be retractable rather than having to rely on folding props etc.

 

[Praxinoscope]

There needs to be serious advances on battery and solar technology or other 'green' energy source, before we see the end of Fossil fuel based power in boats and aircraft.
Much as I would like to see the decline in ICE's in fact in any form of fossil fuel use, IMHO the technology is not there yet and won't be for some time, unless of course we accept the loss of personal transport in the form of our cars, mass travel by air and auxiliary power on yachts that will get us on and off our moorings but little further.

 

[flaming]

There needs to be serious advances on battery and solar technology or other 'green' energy source, before we see the end of Fossil fuel based power in boats and aircraft.
Much as I would like to see the decline in ICE's in fact in any form of fossil fuel use, IMHO the technology is not there yet and won't be for some time, unless of course we accept the loss of personal transport in the form of our cars, mass travel by air and auxiliary power on yachts that will get us on and off our moorings but little further.

Not sure I totally agree there. I'm currently looking at an electric car with a range of nearly 300 miles. How many people really need to drive more than 300 miles without stopping for an hour or 2 to charge it up again? For most people having 300 miles "in the tank" at the start of each day from overnight charging would be more than enough.

In terms of boats, the technology exists for motoring range measured in the 10s of miles with a sensible battery bank now. it's only going to get better.
To further answer the question I posed, I think it will also change the emphasis in yacht design towards easily driven hulls that do not have to motor to make progress in light winds.

But the thing is, like it or not it's going to come, and probably sooner than you think. The question is how it changes sailing.

 

[Stemar]

Uma seems to manage (sailing Uma on youtube), but limited range. Chugging (or whirring) from Chichester to Newtown Creek or Yarmouth on a still day might be OK, but getting back could be an issue unless batteries improve significantly. Maybe we'd end up going back to pure sailing, which probably means I'll end up doing it on my own.

But what about this

or this

Once you start getting up to the top of the range Sunseekers and the like, you're looking at some serious political influence, and they might not be best pleased at the idea. And where do you stop? Cruise liners, container ships bringing tat from China?

 

[Lucky Duck]

Not sure I totally agree there. I'm currently looking at an electric car with a range of nearly 300 miles. How many people really need to drive more than 300 miles without stopping for an hour or 2 to charge it up again? For most people having 300 miles "in the tank" at the start of each day from overnight charging would be more than enough.

In terms of boats, the technology exists for motoring range measured in the 10s of miles with a sensible battery bank now. it's only going to get better.
To further answer the question I posed, I think it will also change the emphasis in yacht design towards easily driven hulls that do not have to motor to make progress in light winds.

But the thing is, like it or not it's going to come, and probably sooner than you think. The question is how it changes sailing.

I'd expect a 'legacy' user base to provide a demand of fuel for quite some time after the ubiquitous diesel auxiliary becomes outlawed on newly built boats.

 

[awol]

Will they outlaw the Stirling and other ECEs too?

 

[flaming]

I'd expect a 'legacy' user base to provide a demand of fuel for quite some time after the ubiquitous diesel auxiliary becomes outlawed on newly built boats.

Would the demand for leisure fuel be enough to support a fuel industry once the demand for road fuel has dropped to almost zero though?

 

[Lucky Duck]

While the 'churn' is clearly going to be greater in the car market I suspect it is still going to take a while to replace the 32 million cars in the UK.

Edit - Also might need to consider other fuel users such as railways and the like.

 

[[159032]]

I'm currently looking at an electric car with a range of nearly 300 miles. How many people really need to drive more than 300 miles without stopping for an hour or 2 to charge it up again?

If you can get into a charging point ......

It’s unclear how long the Tesla drivers were forced to wait, however one unimpressed commuter tweeted they’d been waiting in the line for 40 minutes but only appeared to be ‘halfway there’.

Tesla Drivers Stranded In Half-Mile-Long Queue To Charge Cars


"As an indication of the task facing us he quotes a couple of Norwegian statistics. "There are 200,000 EVs in Norway. There are 12,000 charging points. But still there are queues. There are not nearly enough for 200,000 EVs."
If that is not a wake-up call about the scope of investment needed then nothing is. "

Electric vehicle wake-up call: Norway has 12,000 charging points - and still there are queues

.

 

[Rappey]

They may want ice car sales to finish in 2035 but will it happen?
Then allow at least another 10 years for these cars to be used.
That's 25 years time.
Possibility that some vastly superior power source may be available by then .
I would be happy to fit an electric motor if it can go a good distance .
Can't see it being any time soon

 

[MarkCX]

I keep my little 23 footer up a muddy creek in the middle of nowhere with no charging facility. So it’s unlikely that electric propulsion is going to be an option for me any time soon. Some sort of fuel cell technology might be viable in the longer term, but far too expensive for the foreseeable.

 

[nicho]

Modern cruise ship s are powered by electric, via pods. The have bloomin’ great generators to power them though!

 

[Laser310]

They may want ice car sales to finish in 2035 but will it happen?

I think it's questionable...

It's not just a matter of buyers agreeing to switch, and providing charging stations - the power generation has to increase to equal the energy consumed by ICE engines.

Additionally, all heating is to go electric as well.., and that requires even more capacity.

This kind of huge capital investment will require an economy that can pay for it, without cutting back too much on other needs

We will see...

 

[flaming]

Uma seems to manage (sailing Uma on youtube), but limited range. Chugging (or whirring) from Chichester to Newtown Creek or Yarmouth on a still day might be OK, but getting back could be an issue unless batteries improve significantly. Maybe we'd end up going back to pure sailing, which probably means I'll end up doing it on my own.



Once you start getting up to the top of the range Sunseekers and the like, you're looking at some serious political influence, and they might not be best pleased at the idea. And where do you stop? Cruise liners, container ships bringing tat from China?

I think it probably would change the way people use their boats. But then I've never really understood the people who motor for 5 hours at 5 knots on a still day just to get to the place they'd initially planned to, only to motor back the following day...

The big Mobos are another matter....

 

[Zing]

My 2 x 1000HP Sunseeker will need to be 3x its current displacement to cope with the 75,000KWh battery, which I will need to replace the energy stored in my diesel tanks. Then I will need 6 x 1000HP electric engines to replace the diesels and a 2MWh battery to cope with all the extra weight I have just added. It's going to be a very, very big boat.

 

[Mudisox]

I have always wondered what will power lorries, Tractors, fishing boats etc, in th event of banning Ice cars. Cannot see it happening in my lifetime I am afraid, well not really afraid!

 

[flaming]

I keep my little 23 footer up a muddy creek in the middle of nowhere with no charging facility. So it’s unlikely that electric propulsion is going to be an option for me any time soon. Some sort of fuel cell technology might be viable in the longer term, but far too expensive for the foreseeable.

How long would it take a reasonable sized solar array to charge a battery that would be good for say 5 hours at 4 knots on your boat?

 

[flaming]

My 2 x 1000HP Sunseeker will need to be 3x its current displacement to cope with the 75,000KWh battery, which I will need to replace the energy stored in my diesel tanks. Then I will need 6 x 1000HP electric engines to replace the diesels and a 2MWh battery to cope with all the extra weight I have just added. It's going to be a very, very big boat.

Do you see the sort of statement from the government about banning the sale of ICE cars as any sort of threat to your type of boating?

 

[Zing]

Do you see the sort of statement from the government about banning the sale of ICE cars as any sort of threat to your type of boating?

Not unless they solve the problem of diesel powered shipping first. Not much freight is going to get transported if diesel is banned. Actually you can make diesel from plant oil, so if we have gone all zero fossil fuel by then motorboating can be as green as a wind powered boat.

 

[Frogmogman]

One of the guests at the lunch I attended yesterday is the head of electric vehicle design at Peugeot. We discussed where it is all going, and he was strongly of the opinion that the way forward in the longer term is fuel cells.

The problems hitherto with fuel cells have been to do with expense, the life of the units, and the cost and difficulty of obtaining the methanol cartridges. Once the fuel cells themselves improve, and increased distribution of the methanol makes it both cheaper and more readily available, then I'd say they could be an excellent answer for boats.