How much do you drink on board?

[Fantasie 19]

As a mostly single-handed sailor of a luxuryless pocket cruiser I don't see myself as a danger to anyone but myself and it seems to me that dinghies and fast mobos are the most dangerous vessels when combined with significant amounts of alcohol. I deplore the possibility of legislation interfering with my sailing and although it seems eventually inevitable I take comfort from the fact that it will be effectively unenforceable in all the best cruising grounds.

Cheers - a kindred soul!

 

[rbcoomer]

+1
and it can be less liberal than the above, depending on whether at anchor or in a marina berth. One is hardly going to be drinking alcohol if an anchor watch is required overnight!
It would be interesting to see if there is a difference between "MoBos" and "Raggies" - but I'm sure you've thought of that, Tim.

I'm not sure there is a much difference as you might think amongst serious boating enthusiasts. I posted a thread on the 'other side' having picked up on an interesting link highlighted by FistralG on this one. (Statistics on US recreational boating accidents/fatalities)

I think Tim's numbers for dinghy/tender speak volumes and as I commented on the other thread, the factors that most surprised me were low speed and calm conditions. Aside of the jovial comments about fellow boaters from over the pond D), I doubt habits are that different and most of their lakes are after all quite BIG lakes...

For me it made interesting reading from the perspective that if you can so easily eliminate 95% of causes then your probability of encountering an accident must fall accordingly? Also take note of how few accidents in their study feature alcohol as a contributory factor...

 

[wotayottie]

But as we get older I suspect more common sense prevails. .

I doubt it. The people at our yacht club who still drink and drive are all older members of the " I know better" type.

The whole of this thread reminds me of the arguments there were when the breathaliser was introduced and for that matter when seatbelts were introduced. More about people resenting being told what they cannot do than anything else. Bit like the argument about licensing of sailors.

 

[Jamesuk]

I dont drink period, although when i have a Monster Energy drink my parking up of boats is done at speed. Should Energy drinks also be banned?

 

[lustyd]

I doubt it. The people at our yacht club who still drink and drive are all older members of the " I know better" type.

The whole of this thread reminds me of the arguments there were when the breathaliser was introduced and for that matter when seatbelts were introduced. More about people resenting being told what they cannot do than anything else. Bit like the argument about licensing of sailors.

I'm fine with needing a boat licence - that would help things in the Solent.

I'm not fine with the alcohol limits - the problem here is the knock on effects such as not being allowed to drink in a marina, or still being over the limit in the morning. As I said in my previous post, there are already plenty of laws to use on people who are causing a problem so we simply don't require a specific one. Were you in favour of the mobile phone ban in cars as well?

 

[BAtoo]

In a Marina with no sailing planned early the next day will treat it the same as home on a weekend so may well be somewhat over the limit.
Securely on a mooring & not leaving until next day then would drink 2-3 glasses of wine with a meal.
Anchoring (rare for me) more cautious nowadays and probably very little.
Whilst sailing - rarely. Might just have a small beer at the end of the passage (will often be driving soon after).

 

[wotayottie]

Were you in favour of the mobile phone ban in cars as well?

Having had two very narrow escapes from dopey women using mobiles whilst driving, I am totally in favour of the mobile ban - I only wish they would apply it with some vigour.

In fact I have in the past reported mobile phone offenders to plod - one woman for example who was holding the phone in the right hand, trying to change gear with the left as she passed down the road by our house with kids on the pavement that she clipped.

 

[Talulah]

Having had two very narrow escapes from dopey women using mobiles whilst driving, I am totally in favour of the mobile ban - I only wish they would apply it with some vigour.

In fact I have in the past reported mobile phone offenders to plod - one woman for example who was holding the phone in the right hand, trying to change gear with the left as she passed down the road by our house with kids on the pavement that she clipped.

All of the mobile phone regs could have been avoided if they just allowed police officers to give Fixed Penalty Notices for Driving Without Due Care and attention.
The trouble with the mobile phone legislation is it just doesn't work.

 

[lustyd]

Having had two very narrow escapes from dopey women using mobiles whilst driving, I am totally in favour of the mobile ban - I only wish they would apply it with some vigour.

In fact I have in the past reported mobile phone offenders to plod - one woman for example who was holding the phone in the right hand, trying to change gear with the left as she passed down the road by our house with kids on the pavement that she clipped.

This is my point precisely - Driving without due care and attention already covers the situation and it was already an offence to drive using a mobile phone as well as eating, smoking and drinking while driving. By the logic of this law we now need separate laws to cover every single activity one could do while driving which leads to people not being prosecuted if their activity was not covered. Broad laws and common sense are the better way to go every time, and judges know this, but often newspapers and people like yourself get in the way of that and make the system break down.

 

[Gordonmc]

The 45 is for "pleasure vessel fatalities involving alcohol"
Of course you could break them down in various ways.
I'm afraid I don't have the data to do a breakdown by length or speed, but I can do:
Dinghy/tender..........17
Power.....................12
Sail........................3
Canal.....................8
Canoe/kayak...........5

2 of the 45 were "commercial pleasure vessels", the other 43 were "non commercial pleasure vessels"

Can you go further, Tim and say which six years are referred to?
I raise this because six years seems a strange time-period for statistical purposes. Could it be that the 45 figure is for the six years for which complete numbers are available, which will include 2005 when one incident alone accounted for four lives lost... a huge tragedy but one which was, statistically at least, an unusual occurrence.
And for a useful comparison, how many boating deaths occurred during the same period which were not alcohol related?

 

[timbartlett]

Can you go further, Tim and say which six years are referred to?
I raise this because six years seems a strange time-period for statistical purposes. Could it be that the 45 figure is for the six years for which complete numbers are available, which will include 2005 when one incident alone accounted for four lives lost... a huge tragedy but one which was, statistically at least, an unusual occurrence.
And for a useful comparison, how many boating deaths occurred during the same period which were not alcohol related?

(1) 2005 (8+1), 2006 (8), 2007 (13), 2008 (3), 2009 (7+1), 2010 (4)
Figures in brackets are the number of supposedly alcohol-related deaths -- (non-commercial pleasure + commercial pleasure)
(2)Sorry, but we're treading on dangerous ground when we start asking why particular years were selected for inclusion. I agree that six is an unusual number (why not five or ten?) but I can't say more until I've done a bit more work on it.
(3) Again, I can't go further until I have gathered more information. It's not straightforward, because different data is collected by different organisations, so trying to get a definitive figure is a nightmare of double or treble-counting (where the same fatality gets counted two or three times) and classification (where is the dividing line between a beach toy and a dinghy? Is an outboard powered day-sailer a "dinghy", a "yacht" or a "powered vessel" etc. Is a heart attack or a suicide a marine accident just because it happened on a boat?) Based on my recollection of similar exercises that I have done in the past, the UK figure is usually in the order of 20-25 "genuine" boating fatalities each year

 

[Woodlouse]

Could we have a boisterous discussion as to whether mobile phones should be banned when sailing? Has anyone collected any stats on this potential hazard yet?

 

[graham]

(1) 2005 (8+1), 2006 (8), 2007 (13), 2008 (3), 2009 (7+1), 2010 (4)
Figures in brackets are the number of supposedly alcohol-related deaths -- (non-commercial pleasure + commercial pleasure)
(2)Sorry, but we're treading on dangerous ground when we start asking why particular years were selected for inclusion. I agree that six is an unusual number (why not five or ten?) but I can't say more until I've done a bit more work on it.
(3) Again, I can't go further until I have gathered more information. It's not straightforward, because different data is collected by different organisations, so trying to get a definitive figure is a nightmare of double or treble-counting (where the same fatality gets counted two or three times) and classification (where is the dividing line between a beach toy and a dinghy? Is an outboard powered day-sailer a "dinghy", a "yacht" or a "powered vessel" etc. Is a heart attack or a suicide a marine accident just because it happened on a boat?) Based on my recollection of similar exercises that I have done in the past, the UK figure is usually in the order of 20-25 "genuine" boating fatalities each year

A lot of good points there Tim.

I think the problem with drink related accident statistics is that if any alcohol is found in the skipper it will be recorded and could be used to add to a list of contributory factors. Impossible to know if the alcohol really contributed to the accident or not but very handy to use to massaage the statistics .

Personally I think any new legislation would achieve very little .

 

[Woodlouse]

Any legislation will be a bit like the hunting ban. It will satisfy the majority of those who want it and those who I affects will just ignore it.

 

[YachtAllegro]

Some more detail on the data is contained in the MAIB report on the Morfil referred to early on in this thread. I've attached the relevant table as an image below.

Cheers
Patrick

 

[alant]

A lot of good points there Tim.

I think the problem with drink related accident statistics is that if any alcohol is found in the skipper it will be recorded and could be used to add to a list of contributory factors. Impossible to know if the alcohol really contributed to the accident or not but very handy to use to massaage the statistics .

Personally I think any new legislation would achieve very little .

If alcohol 'is' found in the skipper & its over whatever is considered the 'limit', then why shouldn't that be a factor (if relevant to any incident).

 

[prv]

If alcohol 'is' found in the skipper & its over whatever is considered the 'limit', then why shouldn't that be a factor (if relevant to any incident).

The point is that it may be counted even where it isn't relevant.

Pete

 

[A1Sailor]

Some more detail on the data is contained in the MAIB report on the Morfil referred to early on in this thread. I've attached the relevant table as an image below.

Cheers
Patrick

Three, from 2005, are at http://www.maib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/Sea Snake_Synopsis.pdf

 

[Gordonmc]

So... to summarise there were 45 alcohol related boating deaths in the six years in discussion.
Annually the number of non alcohol related boating deaths is 20 - 25. Lets say 22.5.
Therefore combined alcohol and non acohol related deaths total 180 in the six year period.
So, "only" one in four boating deaths is alcohol related even if you accept the figures are skewed by:
1. The period chosen for the analysis;
2. How "alcohol related" is determined;
3. What determines a boating death.
I am not a statistician but there does not appear to be a compelling argument for legislation to extend existing regulation of the commercial sector to leisure boaters.
In addition I would argue that the potential for loss of life and environmental catastrophy from a weekend yottie is insignificant in comparison with that if the driver of an oil tanker was booze-impaired.

 

[lustyd]

So... to summarise there were 45 alcohol related boating deaths in the six years in discussion.
Annually the number of non alcohol related boating deaths is 20 - 25. Lets say 22.5.
Therefore combined alcohol and non acohol related deaths total 180 in the six year period.
So, "only" one in four boating deaths is alcohol related

So statistically I'm more likely to die a horrible boating death if I'm sober...thank goodness I just bought the Lagavulin