A1Sailor
...
So statistically I'm more likely to die a horrible boating death if I'm sober...thank goodness I just bought the Lagavulin
Remember - Tim won't include this in his article unless you PM him...
Remember - Tim won't include this in his article unless you PM him...
mcframe
Well-Known Member
Admiralty Minutes 5299, folio 587, Pares, "Manning of the Navy" p34, ADM 1/235 T. Cotes, 20th April 1759:
"men might be offered anything up to £40 for the voyage home [from W Indies] to England, or 30 guineas and 20 gallons of rum"
The odd drink on a sailing boat is a long standing & harmless tradition.
Ahem!
I'll see your 1759 and raise you to 1266.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QChQYpDJzs
"We have rum from the Caribbean
And Burgundy from France."
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cem
Well-Known Member
wow, this looks like it is going way out of hand, it only took to page 4 for the MOBOs to be blamed, yet it looks like a large proportion of the deaths were tender related....possibly oversized members of the birmingham navy falling off the side of an overloaded undersized zodiac or falling in the drink (pun intended) whilst trying to board the mother ship at anchor... from my experience the biggest drinkers (whilst afloat) i have met are the social racing raggies
for me, i may have a cheeky lunch time beer or one when we are out fishing, but in the main i am driving when i get back in so wouldn't ever drink more than that anyway (and normally it is a good few hours before i would be getting in the car), if not driving then i may have 2 beers but that is about it.....now i have had one occasion when SWMBO said that she would drive the boat back to the marina and not drink so that i could have a few beers at a beach BBQ with some friends, so i had a good few beers and then still had to park the dam thing as she was worried that the space on the pontoon wasn't big enough, all went without incident (in fact one of my best pieces of parking!) but i wouldn't want to do it on a regular basis....once tied up then as far as i am concerned it is just a place to sleep
Now, before any legislation about this is considered what about the fact (that others have mentioned) that there is no legal requirement to hold any form of licence to drive the boat in the first place!, when i bought my boat, we didn't even take it out prior to doing our PB2 course (we booked the course as the sale was going through and arranged it for the week after the purchase) yet i see and hear of people who's response is that they can drive the boat no problem why do they need to do a course or have a licence..... the only dent, and it is a very small dent, in my boat was caused by one such person who drove straight into us whist messing up a turn in the marina, we were tied up they didn't make it round, crunch! thankfully at very low speed...but unqualified and uninsured as well, but i guess that is another penalty we pay for there being no legislation regarding a "boat licence"
if there is any need for any legislation it needs to be the "boat licence" before anything else...which begs the question do we need any more legislation at all
for me, i may have a cheeky lunch time beer or one when we are out fishing, but in the main i am driving when i get back in so wouldn't ever drink more than that anyway (and normally it is a good few hours before i would be getting in the car), if not driving then i may have 2 beers but that is about it.....now i have had one occasion when SWMBO said that she would drive the boat back to the marina and not drink so that i could have a few beers at a beach BBQ with some friends, so i had a good few beers and then still had to park the dam thing as she was worried that the space on the pontoon wasn't big enough, all went without incident (in fact one of my best pieces of parking!) but i wouldn't want to do it on a regular basis....once tied up then as far as i am concerned it is just a place to sleep
Now, before any legislation about this is considered what about the fact (that others have mentioned) that there is no legal requirement to hold any form of licence to drive the boat in the first place!, when i bought my boat, we didn't even take it out prior to doing our PB2 course (we booked the course as the sale was going through and arranged it for the week after the purchase) yet i see and hear of people who's response is that they can drive the boat no problem why do they need to do a course or have a licence..... the only dent, and it is a very small dent, in my boat was caused by one such person who drove straight into us whist messing up a turn in the marina, we were tied up they didn't make it round, crunch! thankfully at very low speed...but unqualified and uninsured as well, but i guess that is another penalty we pay for there being no legislation regarding a "boat licence"
if there is any need for any legislation it needs to be the "boat licence" before anything else...which begs the question do we need any more legislation at all
Monique
Well-Known Member
I never drink while underway and only allow one glass with a meal for the crew in easy weather. None in heavy going.
At anchor, I never drink to where I cannot take sensible/rational decisions promptly. I also assign another primary CM to remain sober.
At anchor, I never drink to where I cannot take sensible/rational decisions promptly. I also assign another primary CM to remain sober.
T
timbartlett
Guest
A few bits of information
I know cross-forum posting is frowned upon, but as there is now a parallel thread running on the motor boat forum I hope Laura won't mind if I post this here as well as there:
The law already exists. It's Section 80-81 of the Railways and Transport Safety Act 2003 (no, I'm afraid I'm not joking, it really is). http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2003/20/section/80 Most of the Act is already in force. It will only take a ministerial signature to bring sections 80-81 into force as well.
It applies to any non-professional who "is on board a ship which is under way,
is exercising, or purporting or attempting to exercise, a function in connection with the navigation of the ship"
The limits are
(a)in the case of breath, 35 microgrammes of alcohol in 100 millilitres,
(b)in the case of blood, 80 milligrammes of alcohol in 100 millilitres, and
(c)in the case of urine, 107 milligrammes of alcohol in 100 millilitres.
That's exactly the same as the limits for driving a car. There's some confusion here because new rules have introduced lower limits for professionals, but the MAIB appear to be campaigning for the car limits for non-pros.
Accident statistics are always contentious and often hard to classify (For instance, is someone who commits suicide on a boat a marine accident?) But there are typically about two dozen uncontested recreational boating fatalities per year, and maybe a dozen or so more that might be or might not be depending on whether you're wanting the figure to be high or low.
The MAIB are asserting that there were 43 fatalities in alcohol-related accidents in non-commercial pleasure craft in the six years 2005-2010inc. Of those:
- 17 were in dinghies/tenders
- 12 were in power craft
- 3 were in sailing craft
- 8 were in canal boats
- 5 were in canoes or kayaks
- 0 were in PWCs
(the data is MAIB's, but the classification of boat types is mine)
Hope this helps
I know cross-forum posting is frowned upon, but as there is now a parallel thread running on the motor boat forum I hope Laura won't mind if I post this here as well as there:
The law already exists. It's Section 80-81 of the Railways and Transport Safety Act 2003 (no, I'm afraid I'm not joking, it really is). http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2003/20/section/80 Most of the Act is already in force. It will only take a ministerial signature to bring sections 80-81 into force as well.
It applies to any non-professional who "is on board a ship which is under way,
is exercising, or purporting or attempting to exercise, a function in connection with the navigation of the ship"
The limits are
(a)in the case of breath, 35 microgrammes of alcohol in 100 millilitres,
(b)in the case of blood, 80 milligrammes of alcohol in 100 millilitres, and
(c)in the case of urine, 107 milligrammes of alcohol in 100 millilitres.
That's exactly the same as the limits for driving a car. There's some confusion here because new rules have introduced lower limits for professionals, but the MAIB appear to be campaigning for the car limits for non-pros.
Accident statistics are always contentious and often hard to classify (For instance, is someone who commits suicide on a boat a marine accident?) But there are typically about two dozen uncontested recreational boating fatalities per year, and maybe a dozen or so more that might be or might not be depending on whether you're wanting the figure to be high or low.
The MAIB are asserting that there were 43 fatalities in alcohol-related accidents in non-commercial pleasure craft in the six years 2005-2010inc. Of those:
- 17 were in dinghies/tenders
- 12 were in power craft
- 3 were in sailing craft
- 8 were in canal boats
- 5 were in canoes or kayaks
- 0 were in PWCs
(the data is MAIB's, but the classification of boat types is mine)
Hope this helps
poter
Well-Known Member
The law
Tim do we actually Know if a new law is being proposed? & how/who will adminster & inforce?
Tim do we actually Know if a new law is being proposed? & how/who will adminster & inforce?
T
timbartlett
Guest
It's not a new law. THe MAIB are campaigning for the existing law to be brought into force.
Enforcement is one of the issues. As the law stands, it would requirea "marine official" (eg a harbour master) to detain the vessel, but for a police officer to be called to carry out thetest and make any necessary arrest.
That could mean a long wait if you're in Ocean Village on a Friday night
poter
Well-Known Member
It's not a new law. THe MAIB are campaigning for the existing law to be brought into force.
Enforcement is one of the issues. As the law stands, it would requirea "marine official" (eg a harbour master) to detain the vessel, but for a police officer to be called to carry out thetest and make any necessary arrest.
That could mean a long wait if you're in Ocean Village on a Friday night
There are of course many scenarios that one can dream up - Coming into port & then subsequantly having a beer or two, not strictly "Underway" it all gets very bogged down in the actual implimentation of the law. Are we also subject to this law if we are british flagged but not in home waters?
Sorry will the law apply to "In charge" or "Underway"?
alant
Well-Known Member
So, are you saying that if tide up/moored/anchored/aground, that the skipper if tested & over those limits, is not breaking the law?
Allan
Well-Known Member
I once read an article about how the drink drive laws affect camper vans. I can't remember the details but there were some times that people who had no intention of driving could be convicted. The same could easily happen to sailors if the law is not written very carefully.
Allan
Allan
PaulGooch
Well-Known Member
According to post #125
So it doesn't apply if you are in the marina, on a buoy or at anchor.
As there are no licensing or qualifications required here in the UK, one could easily say that SWMBO was navigating. I could even say my 8yo grandaughter was navigating, she can and does do so. I just have to stick the course into the plotter before i get legless and sober up before the next port
John.edwards
Well-Known Member
not under way, but when moored/anchored/berthed
Gordonmc
Well-Known Member
According to post #125
I could even say my 8yo grandaughter was navigating, she can and does do so. I just have to stick the course into the plotter before i get legless and sober up before the next port
No.
The proposed law provides that a contravention applies to a person; "exercising, or purporting or attempting to exercise, a function in connection with the navigation of the ship."
That includes punching a waypoint into a chartplotter, or even instructing someone to do so.
Tim's 10:28 post is useful. All that is required for the proposal to become law is the approval of a Statutory Instrument... no primary legislation needed.
Searush
Well-Known Member
I'm confused. 
So if it doesn't affect you if not actually sailing/ motoring how will the harbourmaster detain you or get a policeman to you?
So I motor on to my berth hitting a couple of neighbours on the way & tie up. HM comes rushing up (but remember he only works 9-5 Mon-Fri) & I am enjoying a large Scotch in celebration of another successful cruise. He calls the Police who arrive 30 mins later (Like how fast are they really going to respond to a non-urgent incident like this) By now I am halfway down the bottle - what's the point of a test now if I'm allowed to drink when tied up? How can they prove I was drunk when I hit the neighbours?
It's just ridiculous, I suspect that is why it has never been implemented. Boats are in no way similar to cars, even Motorhomes.
So if it doesn't affect you if not actually sailing/ motoring how will the harbourmaster detain you or get a policeman to you?
So I motor on to my berth hitting a couple of neighbours on the way & tie up. HM comes rushing up (but remember he only works 9-5 Mon-Fri) & I am enjoying a large Scotch in celebration of another successful cruise. He calls the Police who arrive 30 mins later (Like how fast are they really going to respond to a non-urgent incident like this) By now I am halfway down the bottle - what's the point of a test now if I'm allowed to drink when tied up? How can they prove I was drunk when I hit the neighbours?
It's just ridiculous, I suspect that is why it has never been implemented. Boats are in no way similar to cars, even Motorhomes.
rbcoomer
Well-Known Member
I'm confused.
So if it doesn't affect you if not actually sailing/ motoring how will the harbourmaster detain you or get a policeman to you?
I wouldn't take that for granted - it's an unnecessary, slippery slope IMHO.
Personally, I wouldn't risk it - the law (or at least the implementation of) can unfortunately defy anything resembling common sense sometimes! About 20 years ago a guy I worked for came back from a business meeting in London by train. He had parked his car close to Newton Abbot station, but upon return went to a nearby watering hole having met a friend on the train. Somewhat worse for wear upon leaving the pub, he walked a few yards to the taxi rank and arranged a cab home. However at this stage he walked back to his car to retrieve coat and briefcase which he had dropped there between train & pub. At this point he was nicked for D&D - not having even put the keys in the ignition!
We at the office laughed it off, thinking it would be dismissed in court because he had the evidence of the cabbie and the friend that a) he had made alternative arrangements to get home and b) hadn't driven (nor even started) the car. Wrong. He got a six-year ban, because he was 'drunk in charge of...' and had sat in the car (a coupe) to retrieve belongings.
The conviction was upheld on appeal.As it happens, we had little sympathy because he often drove when over the limit and we also suspect that plod was 'working on information received', but it does open a whole can of worms for anyone on the water if similar legislation were applied to leisure boats. At what point are you 'in charge' and how on earth do you prove intent not to go anywhere on the basis you are over the limit and thus not 'capable' of rational decision making...
I have no problem with prosecution of someone who operates a boat whilst 'hammered' - especially with others aboard, but I have serious doubts that implementation of any new legislation would stop there. Like others have said, laws already exist to facilitate the prosecution of reckless individuals and a more likely outcome of proposed laws would be the routine stopping of vessels 'in the interest of public safety' etc etc. As a society, we seem to have lost sight of the bigger picture with regard to justice in an ever deepening morass of micro-legislation.
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Woodlouse
Well-Known Member
30 mins? You kidding? A nice cushy number like that will have them screaming up with the blues and twos in under 60 seconds.
Tomahawk
Well-Known Member
more Portugese hassle
My brother lives in Portugal..
From comments he makes it seems the thread on more Portugese hassle is accurate. The local marine police and harbour masters delight in giving pleasure boaters absolute hell ... because they can... you cannot argue with them because they have legal authority...
Putting this into context, a recent thread about the poor service provided by local authority operated harbours and marinas highlighted the poor service they offer.. Local council employees do not understand service, but they do ever so much understand implementing regulations.. There are exactly the sort of people who would be given the a authority to enforce the legislation. So yes the council employee will be very likely to try and enforce this legislation.
What seems very odd is this legislation was introduced by New Labour.... It seems a contradiction in terms for a Conevative Government to implement further state interference in private affairs..
My brother lives in Portugal..
From comments he makes it seems the thread on more Portugese hassle is accurate. The local marine police and harbour masters delight in giving pleasure boaters absolute hell ... because they can... you cannot argue with them because they have legal authority...
Putting this into context, a recent thread about the poor service provided by local authority operated harbours and marinas highlighted the poor service they offer.. Local council employees do not understand service, but they do ever so much understand implementing regulations.. There are exactly the sort of people who would be given the a authority to enforce the legislation. So yes the council employee will be very likely to try and enforce this legislation.
What seems very odd is this legislation was introduced by New Labour.... It seems a contradiction in terms for a Conevative Government to implement further state interference in private affairs..
A1Sailor
...
30 mins? You kidding? A nice cushy number like that will have them screaming up with the blues and twos in under 60 seconds.
Like this:
LittleSister
Well-Known Member
We are going to rename our tender and boat, so we can honestly say to the doctor "We don't drink more than 3 units a day on 'Average', only ever once on 'A Blue Moon'"
Thaumaturge
Well-Known Member
Although I will reluctantly state my personal view on this, or any other issue that exercises our correspondents it worries me intensely that we (the royal 'we') are always ready to express a view on the behaviour of others.
The less that government, the RYA or any other regulatory authorities have to say in the way I conduct my life the better. Whether it be control of our views on race, sexuality, 'political correctness' (whatever that means), responsibility, duty, health & safety, freedom of speech, drinking habits, taking risks, religious freedom, cholestorol, education, ambition, taxation, bonuses etc etc etc.................. I could go on for weeks, but I think you get the point?
We are all adult, and as such we should and will act in a manner appropriate to the circumstances that present themselves.
I will, undoubdtedly, have p****ed off a number of regular correspondents with this observation, but I leave you with this question.
What the FF is a 'Phantom number 9'...?
The less that government, the RYA or any other regulatory authorities have to say in the way I conduct my life the better. Whether it be control of our views on race, sexuality, 'political correctness' (whatever that means), responsibility, duty, health & safety, freedom of speech, drinking habits, taking risks, religious freedom, cholestorol, education, ambition, taxation, bonuses etc etc etc.................. I could go on for weeks, but I think you get the point?
We are all adult, and as such we should and will act in a manner appropriate to the circumstances that present themselves.
I will, undoubdtedly, have p****ed off a number of regular correspondents with this observation, but I leave you with this question.
What the FF is a 'Phantom number 9'...?
