How much bother is switching to gaff rig?

I think loads of yachts designed without compromise to be rewarding upwind, cover half their annual mileage under power. Most modern yacht owners don't care if they have to motor instead of sail, so why do we mostly choose yachts designed for sailing efficiency, with their cruising comfort and convenience significantly compromised, and no place to shelter while at the helm? Such was certainly my thinking when I began this thread.

Having said that, if I watch a Roger Barnes video like that in Old Bawley's post above, I'm immediately reminded of how flexible the definition of "dinghy" can be.

Half the classic dinghies under the Dinghy Cruising Association's banner are too heavy by half to be hauled out without a winch or tow-car, yet they please their owners almost by virtue of their limitations. I've been enjoying the Australian dinghy cruising videos made by a chap called Paul who sails a pretty, retro-styled wooden boat, a Stornoway 18 called Kate Louise...

...the videos are very slick (helped by Australian scenery and weather) but thinking of my own sailing, I'm obliged to ask myself why I haven't yet bought a Swift 18 or Hunter Medina, or any of the other sub-20ft handy little boats that are barely yachts, yet are easily small enough to squeeze into the category which doesn't oblige one to expect to be comfortable, or to stand upright in the cabin.

If I think again of a slightly bigger and less demanding, more relaxing boat than my Osprey dinghy, for summertime fun (edging into longer seasons because there's no risk of capsizing) and which isn't inconvenient to leave at a distant harbour rather than beat home against a force six...and which allows all my kit to be stored dry on board, and enables sailing on so many breezy days when I can't launch the Osprey...it's still a very tempting proposal.

Bad time for an epiphany, when everyone here was enjoying thinking about gaff conversions. But in a way, it all fits together. I hadn't considered another boat that requires berthing (or trailing to a substantial driveway space at home, which I don't have) because it seemed like too much, for not enough reward.

I wouldn't want another boat like the Achilles 24, which draws 3ft and can't be manhandled onto a trolley because at 1200kg, she's definitely a yacht, just not a remotely comfortable yacht. But, perhaps an even smaller, even less comfortable yacht, makes more sense, by not attempting to be anything but a self-righting dinghy with a lid?

Dear me, what a bore I am. My apologies, it's three-thirty a.m. ?
 
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Kukri said:
Nice article by WM Nixon here:

Ireland’s Pioneering World-Girdler Saoirse Will Sail Again
Click to expand...
Back in 1972 whilst on my West Country sourjourn aboard my 15foot ocean cruiser I spent sometime playing chess with the owner of an Alacrity which seemed remarkably spacious.Anyway he and his Icelandic wife sailed off and I met him again in 1974 in Plymouth.He had bought Saoirse and sailed to Iceland.He at some point divorced and the boat was sold to I thing a Brazilian.My aquantence went on to buy and was fitting out a Looe Lugger.I was in Plymouth aboard my newly purchased Matlot class18 footer destined to be converted into yet another world girdler
 
dancrane said:
I think loads of yachts designed without compromise to be rewarding upwind, cover half their annual mileage under power. Most modern yacht owners don't care if they have to motor instead of sail, so why do we mostly choose yachts designed for sailing efficiency, with their cruising comfort and convenience significantly compromised, and no place to shelter while at the helm? Such was certainly my thinking when I began this thread.

Having said that, if I watch a Roger Barnes video like that in Old Bawley's post above, I'm immediately reminded of how flexible the definition of "dinghy" can be.

Half the classic dinghies under the Dinghy Cruising Association's banner are too heavy by half to be hauled out without a winch or tow-car, yet they please their owners almost by virtue of their limitations. I've been enjoying the Australian dinghy cruising videos made by a chap called Paul who sails a pretty, retro-styled wooden boat, a Stornoway 18 called Kate Louise...

...the videos are very slick (helped by Australian scenery and weather) but thinking of my own sailing, I'm obliged to ask myself why I haven't yet bought a Swift 18 or Hunter Medina, or any of the other sub-20ft handy little boats that are barely yachts, yet are easily small enough to squeeze into the category which doesn't oblige one to expect to be comfortable, or to stand upright in the cabin.

If I think again of a slightly bigger and less demanding, more relaxing boat than my Osprey dinghy, for summertime fun (edging into longer seasons because there's no risk of capsizing) and which isn't inconvenient to leave at a distant harbour rather than beat home against a force six...and which allows all my kit to be stored dry on board, and enables sailing on so many breezy days when I can't launch the Osprey...it's still a very tempting proposal.

Bad time for an epiphany, when everyone here was enjoying thinking about gaff conversions. But in a way, it all fits together. I hadn't considered another boat that requires berthing (or trailing to a substantial driveway space at home, which I don't have) because it seemed like too much, for not enough reward.

I wouldn't want another boat like the Achilles 24, which draws 3ft and can't be manhandled onto a trolley because at 1200kg, she's definitely a yacht, just not a remotely comfortable yacht. But, perhaps an even smaller, even less comfortable yacht, makes more sense, by not attempting to be anything but a self-righting dinghy with a lid?

Dear me, what a bore I am. My apologies, it's three-thirty a.m. ?
Click to expand...
Possibly have to look to North America where small boats are very popular and querky home build designs are built.Thereis also a big following for small 21/24 mini Bristol Channel pilot cutter types like theDana 20….excellent sea boats with accomodation for very firm friends.
 
Rum Run said:
Some bloke called Connor O'Brien, who had sailed a few miles apparently, thought that the ideal rig was a big engine for upwind work and a squaresail on a yard for everything else. That would save on complicated sail cutting anyway.

edited to remove extraneous part of his name, which confused him with another famous Irishman
Click to expand...
I was just about to tell you that Conor O'Brien and Conor Cruise O'Brien were different men but you beat me to it. ?

"Across Three Oceans" by Conor O'Brien is one of my favourite reads.
 
jamie N said:
Or Yoal & Sixareen?
Click to expand...
The working rig for the Orkney Yole was typically two masts with sprit sails. The sprit may be a simple answer for the OP.
The Shetland Sixareen had a dipping lug for use with a fair wind; with the wind ahead they rowed, or so I was told in the 70's by an old fisherman who's first job had been as crew on one working to the west of Shetland.
 
Occasionally an open boat can be seen in Chichester harbour with a lateen type rig using a long yard and a jib with head down at the bowsprit and tack high at the other end of the yard. The clew hangs down to the helm in the stern. Seems to work.
 
dancrane said:
Restrain your sniggers at my first stab at a plan, if you please...

I haven't looked hard at junk rig or possible multiple masts; and I only traced the shape of the hull and superstructure (from a photograph) so there's likely to be difference between actual measurements, and those I've drawn.

But on the 18ft hull, the standard 150sq ft Bermudan rig (whose masthead is where I've marked in blue) could have a 240sq ft gaff rig, even without a staysail.

52347754916_d84d8ba142_z.jpg


As I said much earlier, I recognise the effect that significantly increasing sail area may have on the stiffness of a small shallow-draught boat.

What I'd like to know, is does it look woefully unbalanced, given that I haven't moved the mast-step?
Click to expand...

Dan, have you come across the Haber yachts built in Poland?
Some of their smaller yachts seem to be quite close to what you are thinking of (?)
HABER YACHTS - JACHTY ŻAGLOWE

And the small Nimble motorsailers built in the USA?
Their website suggests that they are only building trawler yachts now (ie no sail), but they have built sailboats in the past.
New Boats | Nimble Boat Works

This looks similar to what you are thinking of, although longer at 25'.
1989 Nimble Arctic 25 Sailboat in Charleston, SC

Or the Nimble Kodiak -
SailboatData.com - NIMBLE KODIAK 24 Sailboat
 
Thanks Bajan, I like that Nimble Kodiak - though I might like it even better, under gaff rig. ;)

Size is definitely an issue for me, though. There's a lot to like about a design which combines mast and sails with a wheel-shelter and cabin, on a hull that's barely big enough for an inboard or through-hull fittings. I suppose the appeal is largely down to cost reduction and simplicity.

It's strange to me that the handful of mini-motorsailers built, have such undersized rigs. Gaff rig (or other alternatives) seems to me to offer more sail area without adding height, relative to the default Bermudan. In a small boat with such shallow draught, tall rigs seem like something to avoid, yet the designers have invariably chosen smaller Bermudan, over lower and fuller rigs.
 
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jamie N said:
I sailed on Sixareen Vaila Mae a couple of years ago, and was surprised by how usable it was, and its pace!
Click to expand...
I may have seen her being built at Hays Dock for the Shetland Museum on one of my later cruises up there, but when I was living in Shetland the only sixareens were gently returning to nature in nousts at the back of beaches. There were plenty of the "Shetland maids" sailing then with big bermudan sloop rigs and keen racing.
I did sail a restored Western Isles fishing boat in Stornoway with a big dipping lug and that was a powerful rig. Double ended hull and heavily built but not as fine lined as a sixareen and clearly not intended for long distances under oars.
 
dancrane said:
Size is definitely an issue for me, though. There's a lot to like about a design which combines mast and sails with a wheel-shelter and cabin, on a hull that's barely big enough for an inboard or through-hull fittings. I suppose the appeal is largely down to cost reduction and simplicity.
Click to expand...

It should be possible to put a gaff motor sailer rig on one of these small Benford 'trawler' yachts?
Benford Design Group

And have you seen this little 18' Morning Tide gaffer designed by Paul Fisher?
You could maybe have a small deckhouse, and raise the boom a bit - how much headroom would you need?
Pocket Cruisers 16' to 20'
 
You dont necessarily need running backstays. We have a harrison butler gaff sloop that has the cap shrouds set further aft.

On a motor sailer this might be easy to achieve

dancrane said:
An idle, end-of-season question. I asked something similar before, but I can't recall when, or what the answer was.

I'm in a position to buy a small motorsailer (I'd rather not be drawn on which specifically) but the ones that fit my bill have rigs I wouldn't be proud to own.

They're stunted, probably because the designer expected owners to take token interest in sail trim, and to switch to engine during challenging weather.

The simple Bermudan masthead rig is like a half-size version of that on many cruising yachts, which are reasonably anticipated to be sailed to windward...

...but aboard the motorsailer, the tiny Bermudan rig doesn't bring upwind performance, because the hull and superstructure are so aerodynamically inefficient.

My plan would only be to make the boat sail powerfully when the wind is favourable, accepting that she cannot (and shouldn't be forced to) sail upwind. I'd be converting her from a lazily designed and fitted attempt at a motorsailer, to a proper fifty-fifty.

To that end, I'm thinking the tiny mainsail could be replaced by a gaff main, of significantly greater area (and boom-length), but no extra height. This (I'm assuming) would be better than a taller Bermudan rig which would heel much more without making the vessel better to windward.

I wasn't proposing to rig a gaff mainsail on the existing mast.

Could the extra sail area aft be balanced by a staysail and good-sized yankee on a long bowsprit, or would the mast have to be stepped further forward?

I daresay the steering balance would be wrong at the first attempt. Would dropping hard upwind use from the plan, make this less of a problem?

I'd be ready for plenty of trial and adjustment while enjoying the boat's equally valid use under engine.

Having created an unusual looking vessel (but not so laughable as with her standard rig), just how much bother would a gaff main be, in place of a stumpy Bermudan? I'm assuming the main issue is the running backstays.

Before anybody makes the obvious warning, I realise increasing any boat's sail-plan outside its design requires close attention and ready reaction to conditions, and reefing ahead of time. But many small motorsailers have rigs so tiny, they're only fit for mounting radar on. I'd like to explore whether the sail-plan provided is all the vessel can take, or just aimed at lazy crews.
Click to expand...
 
Kukri said:
Back in 1977 my father and I re-rigged a little Harrison Butler sloop as a gaff cutter and she has been that way ever since and is still going strong.

Advice from my father and from Gerald Dennis at Taylor’s sail loft in Maldon was taken and included the advice that an amateur usually draws too small a sail plan.View attachment 142752
Click to expand...
Interesting looks a little like our HB, though you have runners.............Diana at Dttisham Mill.jpg
 
Bajansailor said:
Dan, have you come across the Haber yachts built in Poland?
Some of their smaller yachts seem to be quite close to what you are thinking of (?)
HABER YACHTS - JACHTY ŻAGLOWE

And the small Nimble motorsailers built in the USA?
Their website suggests that they are only building trawler yachts now (ie no sail), but they have built sailboats in the past.
New Boats | Nimble Boat Works

This looks similar to what you are thinking of, although longer at 25'.
1989 Nimble Arctic 25 Sailboat in Charleston, SC

Or the Nimble Kodiak -
SailboatData.com - NIMBLE KODIAK 24 Sailboat
Click to expand...
The Yacht Broker at Titchmarsh, Westwater, is an agent for Haber, and there are several around the marina. I've no experience of sailing them, but from their looks, they are motor-sailers, with a gaff rig to keep the mast short. Alloy spars.

BE CAREFUL! I just tried to link to the Haber Yachts web-site from Westwater, and it's obvious that their web-site has been hacked - I got redirected to obvious scam or porn sites!
 
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