How many to crew a 24 footer?

[Alan_B]

How many to crew a 24 footer? - Hunter Europa purchased!!

Hi all,

Just out of interest, how many people would it take to crew a 24 ft yacht round the cans?

Myself and a mate are looking at upgrading next year from a flying fifteen and cant quite decide what we could handle ourselves. He reckons for the likes of an Achilles 24 that you would have to have 3 people, whereas I reckon if it was rigged properly it could be done with 2 without much hassle (including flying the spinnaker).

I understand that in heavier weather extra people will be an advantage, especially for getting weight on the high side, but on a typical day would 2 suffice?

Only reason I ask is we are looking at boats and debating what we could get. He reckons a Hunter Europa or similar, whereas I would be keener to get something abit larger like an Achilles 24 or Westerly J24.

Id be happier with either option, but dont want to be stuck with something smaller when we could have something larger and have the option of a few nights on board etc.

Cost wise the budget is flexible, anywhere up to 3k or so.

Cheers

Al

 

[john_morris_uk]

Its not a question of what you can manage with, but what you will be competitive with...

I would suggest four minimum. Perhaps one or two will be rail bait for most of the time, but you will appreciate the weight to keep the boat on her feet when you are racing. However as soon as you start flying the kite and trying to do quick and snappy spinnaker gybes you will run out of people very quickly. Are you really going to steer, manage gybing the main and the spinnaker lines, while the only other person on board is on the foredeck sorting the pole out? How are you going to trim and sail while he/she is down below repacking the spinnaker - because every race has at least two spinnaker hoists in it...

I've raced a 26 footer with four and it can be enormous fun but it can also be hard work.

You might manage to sail and cruise single handed. Racing is different. Just wait until there is a pack of boats all around you at the leeward or windward mark and you need to do things quickly...

 

[Bobc]

You can manage with 2, but I would think that the right number is 4

 

[flaming]

4 would be a good bet.

You can race with 2 against full crews, I know people who do but they're not competitive.

If you're coming from a Flying 15 then I can see why you think you ought to be able to get by with 2, but it's very different.

 

[Alan_B]

Its not a question of what you can manage with, but what you will be competitive with...

I would suggest four minimum. Perhaps one or two will be rail bait for most of the time, but you will appreciate the weight to keep the boat on her feet when you are racing. However as soon as you start flying the kite and trying to do quick and snappy spinnaker gybes you will run out of people very quickly. Are you really going to steer, manage gybing the main and the spinnaker lines, while the only other person on board is on the foredeck sorting the pole out? How are you going to trim and sail while he/she is down below repacking the spinnaker - because every race has at least two spinnaker hoists in it...

I've raced a 26 footer with four and it can be enormous fun but it can also be hard work.

You might manage to sail and cruise single handed. Racing is different. Just wait until there is a pack of boats all around you at the leeward or windward mark and you need to do things quickly...

Points taken, I guess in our current racing it is rare enough to gybe the kite - I know in the fifteen we get the main across first then worry about the spinnaker. Is this the same on bigger boats?

Would two be pushing it even for a Hunter Europa or similar?

In our club spare crew can be hard to come by. It would be usual enough to see up to 30s out with 3 POB

And yes I'll admit to beign ambicious, but I also dont want to get us into a mess, hence coming on here for advice

 

[mrming]

We race our 23 footer with 4.

Foredecker, pit person, jib / kite trimmer and helm / main trimmer.

The pit person also navigates and calls the starts. On a light day we could get away with 3, but it's not light all that often.

 

[Seajet]

I reckon 2 would be OK for a Europa, 3-4 for an Achilles; as for ' a few nights aboard ', have you seen the interiors, if planning to cruise with your chum /s ?

 

[Alan_B]

I reckon 2 would be OK for a Europa, 3-4 for an Achilles; as for ' a few nights aboard ', have you seen the interiors, if planning to cruise with your chum /s ?

We are in our 20s - if it has something long enough to lie down on I'll sleep on it lol.

Looks like we are after a Hunter or similar then. Saves abit of cash I guess

 

[Seajet]

Alan_B,

there's a good owners association on yahoo for the Hunter 19 / Europa, sorry don't have the exact address but a search on yahoo should get them.

 

[JumbleDuck]

I reckon 2 would be OK for a Europa

A Hunter 19/Europa has 1' less LOA than a Flying 15!

 

[Alan_B]

A Hunter 19/Europa has 1' less LOA than a Flying 15!

Well thats what I was thinking. Fair enough for dropping the kite we have a chute so its all done from the cockpit, but whats so different that it would be harder for 2 to crew something slightly bigger?

I was thinking for the kite to use a basket over the bow so no need to go below, release the pole uphaul on my way forward and the helm can dump the halyard, leaving me to pack the kite and unclip the pole while he gets the jib out. I get back to the cockpit to trim the jib as appropiate. Surely two is sufficient for a 19 / Europa.

As for Navigation etc well thats all done ad-hoc as it is. Our racing course isnt particularly big and its fairly well marked. Plus there will always be someone in front to follow

 

[Seajet]

Relatively few Flying Fifteens have crossed the Atlantic though !

Alan_B,

you may well be aware of it but if going for a 19 / Europa a ' must have/ read ' book is ' Very Willing Griffin ' by David Blagden, about his taking H19 Willing Griffin in the 1972 OSTAR.

Out of print and expensive secondhand though, as all the Hunter types want it.

 

[Alan_B]

Relatively few Flying Fifteens have crossed the Atlantic though !

Alan_B,

you may well be aware of it but if going for a 19 / Europa a ' must have/ read ' book is ' Very Willing Griffin ' by David Blagden, about his taking H19 Willing Griffin in the 1972 OSTAR.

Out of print and expensive secondhand though, as all the Hunter types want it.

Thanks for that, Ill try and get hold of a copy if we get one.

The Atlantic?! We will be on a lake, no transatlantic adventures for us just yet

 

[Petertheking1982]

Hello.
I have an achillies 24. i got it this spring and have done a few local wednesday night races. i have come last over the line in everyone single handed or with 1 inexperienced crew. Not the last owner, but the one before was very competitive, winning local races and getting a very respectable place in round the Island race, but the brand new race sails and outboard plug (for fairing the outboard well) would of helped (haven't used either yet!). Not sure how many crew she normally raced with but they had 5 for the round the island race. As mentioned previously i find i can cruise single handed no probs, but racing as i am doing is more just for a laugh. For competitive racing 3 crew would be good (1 - helm / main, 2 - jib / spinn sheets, 3 - pit / foredeck), and a 4th to add more weight to the rail would be even better. Might be good to ask the question on the owners forum as there are some competitive racers on there http://www.flickr.com/groups/achilles24/ . reason i chose the achilles is it looked the best all rounder for cruising, racing and price (ready to sail for £2000-£4000 depending on condition).

We have a couple of Limbos in our marina (22ft) which look good little race boats, they normally have 3 crew, but some times only 2 and sometimes 4. Also there is an active Mini-ton cup. This boat regularly wins the local races, owner is upgrading to a catamaran tho. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Limbo-7-7...r-/200959537933?ssPageName=ADME:B:ONA:GB:3160

good luck with your search
Ps an achillies 24 also did the ostar back in the 70's, but there is no book tho ;(

 

[markhomer]

Did hunter 19/europa nationals many moons ago , 2 up was the norm competitive crew , infact think whole fleet two up , we were second winner was two up too . Fekkin hard work , in fact hardest ever , but the course and constant gybing tacking in f5 on ullswater prob had lot to do with it .

As for bigger , you can cope with 3 , but prob need more for ballast alone when wind gets up , you would find it hard to beat someone with more meat on the rail when the winds up

 

[mrming]

Well thats what I was thinking. Fair enough for dropping the kite we have a chute so its all done from the cockpit, but whats so different that it would be harder for 2 to crew something slightly bigger?

I was thinking for the kite to use a basket over the bow so no need to go below, release the pole uphaul on my way forward and the helm can dump the halyard, leaving me to pack the kite and unclip the pole while he gets the jib out. I get back to the cockpit to trim the jib as appropiate. Surely two is sufficient for a 19 / Europa.

We drop the kite into the companionway which means no re-packing between hoists. We have a sort of rectangular turtle bag which hangs under the sliding hatch and the crew drop it straight into that.

You can also drop it into the forehatch if the weather's not too rough - again if it goes in straight it won't need packing and can be launched again straight out of there. You don't even need a bag in that case.

You may occasionally find that you're hoisting on a different side than you've dropped and that you'll have to switch the gear around, but that's about as bad as it gets.

 

[JumbleDuck]

I am neither a racer or a spinnakeriste, so this may be a silly question ... is there any reason why a Hunter 19/Europa should not have one of those chute thingies out of which spinnakers pop on the local Flying Fifteen fleet? Do Squibs have 'em? For that matter, what's the normal racing complement of a Squib?

 

[john_morris_uk]

I am neither a racer or a spinnakeriste, so this may be a silly question ... is there any reason why a Hunter 19/Europa should not have one of those chute thingies out of which spinnakers pop on the local Flying Fifteen fleet? Do Squibs have 'em? For that matter, what's the normal racing complement of a Squib?

I can imagine a cloth 'chute' on the deck - although it would be a trip hazzard and very slippery to walk on.

The difference between dinghy/flying fifteen spinnaker work and larger boat/cruiser racer spinnaker work is that the job normally comes down when flying the kite on the larger boats. It means someone has to run up to the foredeck to get the jib down (and if you are running with a tuff luff or similar, they sometimes have to go back up the foredeck to feed it in at the hoist just before the kite comes down.

 

[Seajet]

A spin' chute would compromise hull integrity too much for my liking, and scoop water into the interior; the Europas' pulpit is set back a bit from the stem, so I'd guess a turtle - or even bucket - could be stowed on the front of it.

 

[Iain C]

I would say you might want to take a step back for 2 mins and work out what you are trying to achieve.

If you want good, close, competitive racing in a boat that is fully crewed with two, on a modest budget, then the 15 already offers this.

If you want something that you can sleep aboard, yet still be competitive, then by all means go bigger, but then you need the crew to race it. Plus, you need to think about keeping the weight down (in terms of "sleeping" gear) whilst at the same time keeping the bottom very clean, and by the way unless you are currently racing at the very top of the 15 fleet, you are going to be writing much bigger cheques to sail slower...

If it's remotely possible, would you be better off just looking for an old cruiser that you can throw beer/mates in and have a laugh at the weekend without worrying about ultimate competitiveness, and keep the 15 as your race boat? I suspect that you will find any of these pocket cruiser racers much less rewarding to sail than your 15...