How many coastal cruisers have a life raft?

[dgadee]

I put one on the back of the boat before going to Greece. Now I am there and just intending to potter I won't bother to get it serviced (may mark it externally as serviced!) Will probably buy new for coming back. It is not sinking which concerns me so much as fire - you probably have time to try to sort a leak, but not sure with a fire you would.

 

[Ningaloo]

I do, but. It is oversized valise, 6 persons; never have more than 4 on board.

Debating on this myself. I rarely sail offshore with more than 4 but if I extend my cruising to include ocean passages I may use more crew. Will probably go with a 6 man.
I also have EPIRB and PLB.

Given the cost of a service is at least 30% of new cost, you are probably better off renting if you only need it for a 2-3 week summer cruise.

 

[Gary Fox]

Where are you? I am referring to UK.
I believe that we are one of the few countries that have no (legal) mandatory safety requirements on vessels below 13.7m (other than lights etc). Above 13.7m there are more stringent requirements for life raft, life jackets, life buoys (4 required!) And flares.
I believe France requires all boats to carry a life raft.

I've never heard of any of those 'requirements' . Which organisation 'requires' them, where can I find these rules, and how are they enforced?
As far as I know, and happy to stand corrected, there is nothing for non commercial vessels up to 24m, and even that is between perpendiculars.

 

[Ningaloo]

I've never heard of any of those 'requirements' . Which organisation 'requires' them, where can I find these rules, and how are they enforced?
As far as I know, and happy to stand corrected, there is nothing for non commercial vessels up to 24m, and even that is between perpendiculars.

See Owning a boat

 

[capnsensible]

j

Which is a vanishingly rare scenario, balanced against a huge, heavy, but delicate obstruction on the coachroof, and having their debit card raped at regular intervals by shysters.
I used to think it was essential, now my boat sails better (top hamper, windage) and I have £100's to spend on primary safety rather than an illusory comfort blanket.
Each to their own. I wonder if liferafts encourage less cautious passage plans, as cycling helmets are said to encourage reckless riding?

Yeah, well it's obviously a personal choice. The way I think of it personally is that I very rarely drive a car. But when I do I might have an accident. Small risk and it's not going to stop me driving. However having been a commercial seafarer of one sort or another for all my adult life, I'm gonna reduce my daily risk as much as possible. Fair one. Plus of course, on commercial vessels it's mandatory and I'm well trained. So liferaft it is. And the rest of it.
However, would I say that's right for the average uk sailor? Nah. I've been more than happy to enjoy sailing locally or within that three mile bit on boats without life rafts loadsa times. Hardly a risk at all.
Do I keep a liferaft on my own boat? Yup absolutely!
Worth watching that 13.7 metre thing though if you cock up. I reckon a lot of sailors aren't really aware of regulatory pitfalls that can bite yer arris in the event of an incident. Just like I'm not on the road......

 

[capnsensible]

I've never heard of any of those 'requirements' . Which organisation 'requires' them, where can I find these rules, and how are they enforced?
As far as I know, and happy to stand corrected, there is nothing for non commercial vessels up to 24m, and even that is between perpendiculars.

General exemption in relation to Life Saving Appliances on Class XII vessels | Mandatory equipment for Class XII Vessels | Pleasure Craft Regulations | Regulations | Knowledge & Advice | RYA - Royal Yachting Association

 

[Gary Fox]

General exemption in relation to Life Saving Appliances on Class XII vessels | Mandatory equipment for Class XII Vessels | Pleasure Craft Regulations | Regulations | Knowledge & Advice | RYA - Royal Yachting Association

Thanks for the link, how amazing I thought it all started at 24m.

 

[Gary Fox]

See Owning a boat

Thank you, I have owned lots of seagoing craft over decades, and it never occurred to me to actually look up the government regulations

 

[JumbleDuck]

Did you have a parachute in your gliders?

No. There was a variety of reasons. First and foremost I'm tall and I was always near the weight limit anyway; wearing a parachute would have ruled me out of a lot of aircraft. Secondly, you only really need a parachute if the glider breaks up mid-air and by far the most common ways for that to happen (out of a very small number of incidents) are ...

• hitting other people in crowded thermals, usually while racing (I didn't race and I would avoid crowded thermals)
• hitting other people in clouds, where parachutes were mandatory under BGA rules (I never qualified in cloud flying)
• having the wings fall off doing aerobatics (I only ever did gentle stuff, from 0 to 4g)

There are other accident scenarios when having a parachute wouldn't help at all. I once had an RAF Tornado get so close to me that I was shaken about by it but never saw it, and another once passed me about two of my wingspans (100') away. If one of them hits you the parachute is just going to be another cloud of dust floating towards the ground.

I did normally wear one, if I could, for annual spinning checks, but that usually meant me finding a skinny little instructor and flying from the back seat. Which was fine, because I liked spinning, and liked to go inverted in the recovery if I could.

It's been a ten years since I flew or owned a glider. If I ever take it up again, and buy again - both of which are very unlikely - I will look for glider which can take me with a parachute. I would also seriously consider a ballistic recovery system (BRS) which is a Big Red Button which, when pressed deploys a parachute which brings the whole aircraft down. You're guaranteed to crash, but not too badly.

I'd also certainly want a FLARM, which is a sort of AIS for aircraft. It broadcasts your position, height, speed, direction and rate of turn and analyses broadcast from other FLARM units to predict close approaches. It was only just coming in when I left gliding, but seems to be very common now - and of course the more people who have it, the more sense it makes. If it had to be one or the other I think would buy a FLARM rather than a parachute.

Sorry about the long rambling reply. It's an interesting question which I hadn't thought about for many years but which did occupy me quite a lot at one time.

 

[Greenheart]

I wonder if Etap owners read these life-raft threads, just to make them feel smug? ?

 

[JumbleDuck]

I wonder if Etap owners read these life-raft threads, just to make them feel smug? ?

Are Etaps fireproof?

 

[PhillM]

I rent one and I have used one. Used as in I launched it but in the end didn’t need to get into it. Mind you I was very glad I had it and it was comforting to have it ready and available for use. Interestingly, post accident when the coastguard came to have a chat about the cause, they seemed pretty happy that I was well found and equipped boat (raft, plb, lifejacket, decent foulies, etc). I got the feeling that if I had not, then there might have been more of a follow-up.

When I returned it to the rental company for repacking, they said it was the first ti e that had been used in anger, although the majority of their business is rental to Solent racers.

My rule of thumb is in the Solent and local (say Chichester to Poole) the density of traffic and rescue craft means that I would expect to get picked up quickly, so I don’t rent one, Also, weather forcasts are usually pretty easy to acquire and reliable and can be acted upon.

For cross channel or longer coasts passages I always rent a valise and keep it on the cockpit floor by the companionway. Typically it costs me about £200 for a couple of months rental each season. one reason I don’t buy is I have varying needs. If I am singlehanded I value size and lower weight. If I have crew/family aboard I want a bigger raft that fits us all.

 

[DownWest]

Know two people who have ended up in their dinghys in a hurry. One was fire and the other hitting something, both were off in a matter of minutes and neither was able to get a call out. First because they were delivering the boat after selling her and had taken the radio off (while back, so chunky bit of kit.) The navy saw the smoke and came to look.
Second was in the Carib and went down in short order after hitting something under water (tree trunk?) Out of VHF range...picked up by a fishing boat after a couple of days. Both were in their tenders, not LRs. as before generally fitted to yachts.
Close friend got run down in the Atlantic, more recently, he had prepped his rigid dinghy as a LR, though he said it had made it a bit impractical for general use. Not sinking but damaged, leaking, rig badly compromised, with main mast less several stays and bowsprit carried away and bad weather coming on, he got taken off by a ship. (the one that hit him, didn't stop, though they did answer the VHF...)

When Moboing to Gib in the late 70s, we kept the inflatable half puffed in the back of the cockpit, along with the grab bag of flares etc, as a slight insurance. Cruising at 18kts at night, prob not a lot of help if we hit something, but helped calm the non boaty crew.

 

[Denek]

I have read this thread with interest because I was fully intending to but a life raft for our boat for the coming season as we are going further afield this year. After reading this I am not so sure. We tend to have our inflatable half inflated on deck on longer passages but if out for a day sail don’t bother with that even. We are not going offshore this year ( hopefully 2022) so may leave the lift aft till next season and invest in an epirb this year instead.
I used to be indecisive but I’m not so sure now

 

[Greenheart]

Are Etaps fireproof?

I scanned every Etap currently for sale on Apollo Duck, and not one mentions a life-raft as part of its kit. Perhaps it is fair to state that owners of Etaps don't entertain the likelihood of fire as a reason to put up with life-raft bills?

 

[Strikeliner]

These Liferaft threads are always interesting to see views expressed and ignorance expounded from various quarters.
It has been said elsewhere but if anyone is considering a liferaft then looking at hire for the period in question will always be more economical. Well worth looking at.

I wonder if those who have decided to forgo the carriage of a liferaft and instead rely on EPIRBs and PLB's ( presumably to rescue them from the water in case of an incident (sinking or fire perhaps) always wear a lifejacket? Even with the quoted quick response times for boats/RNLI in the Solent/Channel etc, those finding themselves unexpectedly in the sea clinging to just an EPIRB or worse still a PLB will very possibly drown or suffer a heart attack.

 

[doug748]

My Avon is more likely to give you a heart attack, trying to shift the bloody thing : -)

Available now, £50 cash, collect Plymouth.

.

 

[Zing]

No. There was a variety of reasons. First and foremost I'm tall and I was always near the weight limit anyway; wearing a parachute would have ruled me out of a lot of aircraft. Secondly, you only really need a parachute if the glider breaks up mid-air and by far the most common ways for that to happen (out of a very small number of incidents) are ...

• hitting other people in crowded thermals, usually while racing (I didn't race and I would avoid crowded thermals)
• hitting other people in clouds, where parachutes were mandatory under BGA rules (I never qualified in cloud flying)
• having the wings fall off doing aerobatics (I only ever did gentle stuff, from 0 to 4g)

There are other accident scenarios when having a parachute wouldn't help at all. I once had an RAF Tornado get so close to me that I was shaken about by it but never saw it, and another once passed me about two of my wingspans (100') away. If one of them hits you the parachute is just going to be another cloud of dust floating towards the ground.

I did normally wear one, if I could, for annual spinning checks, but that usually meant me finding a skinny little instructor and flying from the back seat. Which was fine, because I liked spinning, and liked to go inverted in the recovery if I could.

It's been a ten years since I flew or owned a glider. If I ever take it up again, and buy again - both of which are very unlikely - I will look for glider which can take me with a parachute. I would also seriously consider a ballistic recovery system (BRS) which is a Big Red Button which, when pressed deploys a parachute which brings the whole aircraft down. You're guaranteed to crash, but not too badly.

I'd also certainly want a FLARM, which is a sort of AIS for aircraft. It broadcasts your position, height, speed, direction and rate of turn and analyses broadcast from other FLARM units to predict close approaches. It was only just coming in when I left gliding, but seems to be very common now - and of course the more people who have it, the more sense it makes. If it had to be one or the other I think would buy a FLARM rather than a parachute.

Sorry about the long rambling reply. It's an interesting question which I hadn't thought about for many years but which did occupy me quite a lot at one time.

For the record virtually all glider pilots wear parachutes in the UK. Over 99% I would say.

 

[Lucky Duck]

These Liferaft threads are always interesting to see views expressed and ignorance expounded from various quarters.
It has been said elsewhere but if anyone is considering a liferaft then looking at hire for the period in question will always be more economical. Well worth looking at.

I wonder if those who have decided to forgo the carriage of a liferaft and instead rely on EPIRBs and PLB's ( presumably to rescue them from the water in case of an incident (sinking or fire perhaps) always wear a lifejacket? Even with the quoted quick response times for boats/RNLI in the Solent/Channel etc, those finding themselves unexpectedly in the sea clinging to just an EPIRB or worse still a PLB will very possibly drown or suffer a heart attack.

Two thoughts come to mind

Firstly, reports on here of liferafts not working or being found to have been defective so that they would not work are not uncommon.

Secondly, when you last bought a car last did you specify all the collision avoidance systems? Imagine being injured (or worse) in an accident which they could have avoided or mitigated...

 

[dgadee]

These Liferaft threads are always interesting to see views expressed and ignorance expounded from various quarters.
It has been said elsewhere but if anyone is considering a liferaft then looking at hire for the period in question will always be more economical. Well worth looking at.

It depends. If you are going one way, how do you get the liferaft back from where you are? Hiring is ok for a couple of weeks but not if you end up 1000 miles away with a flight home.