How hard is the day skipper theory exam

[Bosun Higgs]

No!

Quite wrong Alant. The only test where there is a pass mark on colregs is the yachtmaster theory.

Not only isnt there a pass mark in the DS course completion test ( it isnt a pass / fail exam anyway) they dont even learn the full colregs anyway.

 

[Bosun Higgs]

So, please do tell us why this would be such a bad idea. Please.

The RYA discourages the approach of going straight to the YM theory but it is still allowed. The reason they discourage is not what the cynical might think but the problem of trying to teach YM theory to two levels of student in the same class - those who have done DS and those who are completely new. But there is absolutely no reason why you copuldnt go direct to YM theory if everyone in the class were starting the same way.

As an instructor I have refused to accept YM candidates who dont have a DS for this reason. My one exception was a commissioned naval officer and that was a mistake - the level of seamanship knowledge given to engineering officers at Dartmouth is poor.

As for the RYA, direct your cynicism at the very idea of having both DS and YM. I believe there should be YM only

 

[photodog]

As for the RYA, direct your cynicism at the very idea of having both DS and YM. I believe there should be YM only

Swmbo and I were just discussing this and I was saying the same thing... the DS is really not challenging enough... and in effect cheapens the whole thing... If you are doing the 20 week winter thing then you have plenty of time to get through the CS/YM theory...

Is this part of the problem with peeps who fail... they are just not being challenged enough?

 

[Doghousekeeper]

Day Skipper is quite challenging enough for some people, and not everyone passes. Others can go straight in at Coastal Skipper level and many of them pass.

Some people pass their O levels, but can't manage A levels.

Some people go on to take degrees, and some of them then manage a masters or even a doctorate

Is it really such a strange idea that some people are more intelligent than others? Thank goodness that there ARE different levels offered by the RYA (and, by the way, recognised by the MCA for appropriate levels of commercial work) for different needs and abilities

 

[PintPlease]

DS is tough

most of you here are looking at this from the perspective of already knowing lots about sailing. Try to put yourself in the shoes of somebody who has minimal sailing experinece. The DS theory course for these people is probably the hardest course they will do as it's all so new. After that the jump to CS is not so large.

 

[snowleopard]

Only tricky bit is tidal calcs

The calculation of secondary port tidal heights is all very well but you usually end up with an answer such as '1.2376m.....and allow a couple of foot for safety'.

In fact a lot of the RYA stuff is like that. When doing RYA plotting exercises the only way to get the 'right' answer is to use the nearest diamond, even though it is clear the topography means the area of the diamond is doing something totally different.

From a point of view of wanting qualifications it is important to know the approved ways of doing things but for someone who just wants to know how to sail safely, is it necessary to learn the official methods only to go on to the shorthand version that most experienced people use?

As an experienced sailor helping someone else to get started, would you for example start them off on tidal diamonds or would you show them how to use the tidal stream atlas and chartlets?

 

[alant]

Who said anything about a passmark?

Quite wrong Alant. The only test where there is a pass mark on colregs is the yachtmaster theory.

Not only isnt there a pass mark in the DS course completion test ( it isnt a pass / fail exam anyway) they dont even learn the full colregs anyway.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Originally Posted by snowleopard
I haven't done DS. Would they really pass you if you had to look up the answers to colregs questions?

No!"
--------------------------------
Agreed, the YM colregs paper has an 80% pass requirement.

However, my answer was to the above question.
The 'collision regs' part of the DS General Paper, whilst not involving the entire coll regs, anyone needing to "look up" the answers, would certainly have 'poor' marked against that result, which would lead to a 're-test' paper. There is 'some' leeway, but not to the extent of looking up answers.

They are on that paper, allowed to use RYA Chart 4 + Practice Almanac ONLY for reference.

 

[alant]

Fer gawds sake, dont listen to yer customers!

I dont understand what the point is that your are trying to make...

is it ......

A) Its impossible to do the CS without doing the DS first.
B) My CS is not worth anything because I didnt do my DS.
C) My experience as a customer is not worth anything.
D) My opinion that "I Would skip the Ds and go straight to the CS..." is wrong as this is too difficult for the OP becuase he is a idiot.
E) The DS is really really hard and I shouldnt encourage him to think he will be fine.
F) Your trying to protect the earnings model of the RYA by encouraging everyone to take all the courses.


I note that at least one YM here has said he didnt do the DS, and others have also said the the DS was "Mind Numbing".....

So, can you please explain to me why someone who hasnt done the DS is somehow handicapped in his further learning curve... or has not been properly equipped to take a CS or YM..... even if he goes on to excel at both...

Here are a few simple facts, all IMHO, 1) the DS is very simple. 2) The CS covers the same content as the DS, but more in depth and extensivley. 3) It is possible if you do a bit of home study, to go straight to the CS (Theory) without doing the DS and excel.

I know that the above is true as I have done this... and a decade later I am still a jolly sailor and have not killed anyone.

So, please do tell us why this would be such a bad idea. Please.

I'm sure the forumites are exceedingly pleased that they share these posts with such a "jolly sailor", but the OP wasn't asking about you & how clever you & your wife are.


1) Because the OP in his original question, was already concerned

"I've just books up to do the day skipper course how hard is it I'm a bit worried in case I can't do it"

Yet you are continuing to undermine his confidence, because you and your wife, have found CS easy.

Did you do this, without any pre-preparation, or go into the class on day 1 & slot straight into it?
No, "It is possible if you do a bit of home study, to go straight to the CS (Theory) without doing the DS and excel.".

The OP, has got concerns already & he is certainly the 'norm' for such courses, whatever their background, who simply turn up without prior knowledge.

Even the YM Practical does not need a DS/CSYM Theory certificate. However, I doubt if anyone without some reasonable experience (preparation) would satisfy the requirements.

2) "The DS is really really hard and I shouldnt encourage him to think he will be fine."

Agreed, you shouldn't encourage him to go into a course, which may be above his capability - that would totally discourage anyone. The fact that to your personal knowledge, you +1, found it 'easy', gives a very narrow sample of the majority of "customers".

3) "F) Your trying to protect the earnings model of the RYA by encouraging everyone to take all the courses."

The RYA system, whilst not flawless, has taken the experience of countless instructors (not just me) in formulating this course structure. It isn't set in concrete & if you choose to jump to a 'higher' level, then you can (other than into YM Ocean Theory without YM). The earnings model as you put it, would be worthless if countless "customers" found courses beneath them.

The DS course is designed for people with no background in sailing/navigating, even though I get candidates who have done it before, many years ago, own their own yacht & are experienced sailors, who still found things they enjoyed learning.


4) "So, can you please explain to me why someone who hasnt done the DS is somehow handicapped in his further learning curve... or has not been properly equipped to take a CS or YM..... even if he goes on to excel at both..."

One of the biggest problems, both for instructors & "Customers", are people who
(a) turn up on a DS practical course, without having done the theory (or ANY theory), who then expect the instructor to concentrate all their time on teaching them from scratch, at the cost of neglecting the guys who have bothered to have some pre knowledge (RYA DS or otherwise).
(b) turn up on CS/YM theory courses, without any pre-knowledge & expect the same concentrated attention from the instructor, again at the expense of all the others in the class. The first exercise on the CS/YM course, is a revision 'chartwork exercise'. Did you need additional attention from your instructor at the expense of the others, in order to complete this? Honest answer please.

If you, your wife, have any criticism of the course contents, please free to give feedback to the RYA, who would welcome it!

 

[alant]

The calculation of secondary port tidal heights is all very well but you usually end up with an answer such as '1.2376m.....and allow a couple of foot for safety'.

In fact a lot of the RYA stuff is like that. When doing RYA plotting exercises the only way to get the 'right' answer is to use the nearest diamond, even though it is clear the topography means the area of the diamond is doing something totally different.

From a point of view of wanting qualifications it is important to know the approved ways of doing things but for someone who just wants to know how to sail safely, is it necessary to learn the official methods only to go on to the shorthand version that most experienced people use?

As an experienced sailor helping someone else to get started, would you for example start them off on tidal diamonds or would you show them how to use the tidal stream atlas and chartlets?

Shouldn't a beginner, be taught 'basics', or go direct to GO & inherit someones faults, which are circumvented only because of your experience in recognising errors, which a beginner would not be aware of.

 

[photodog]

The OP wasn't asking about you & how clever you & your wife are....Yet you are continuing to undermine his confidence, because you and your wife, have found CS easy.

Is it RYA policy to undermine peoples confidence by instilling a sense of trepidation and fear about their capabilites? Or did you come up with this on your own?

you shouldn't encourage him to go into a course, which may be above his capability - that would totally discourage anyone.

Good Plan! Aim low, dont encourage anyone to exceed their expectation because that way no-one will fail and no one will question the quality of their instruction....

One of the biggest problems, both for instructors & "Customers", are people who
.. turn up on CS/YM theory courses, without any pre-knowledge & expect the same concentrated attention from the instructor, again at the expense of all the others in the class.

Yes that has become clear to me now... the course is dumbed down not for the students.. (Heaven forbid they would like a challenge...) but for the instructors.. (Heaven forbid they would like a challenge..)

Shouldn't a beginner, be taught 'basics', or go direct to GO & inherit someones faults, which are circumvented only because of your experience in recognising errors, which a beginner would not be aware of.

Of course only the RYA can recognise errors! And only its way is the right way!




No wonder people think this is a elitist sport when at the very core of the governing body lies a instutional arrogance borne of a deep rooted belief in their own superiority.

I despair. I relate my experience, as requested by the OP... and I am castigated for not instilling fear!

 

[snowleopard]

Take the calculation of tidal offsets for plotting course to steer. To navigate safely it is sufficient to know how to get the info from a tidal stream atlas but to pass RYA shorebased courses you have to be able to do it using the diamonds.

For normal coastal cruising, most of us use GPS fixes but you have to be able to do fixes by cross bearings for the RYA.

A course to steer can be obtained by trying different headings until the GPS track is the same as the true bearing of the destination but that won't wash with the RYA.


So my point is that if the pupil is not interested in paper qualifications there are plenty of things that can be taught differently or skipped altogether.

 

[timbartlett]

The calculation of secondary port tidal heights is all very well but you usually end up with an answer such as '1.2376m.....and allow a couple of foot for safety'.

I my experience, the only reason you get bogged down into stuff like that is because some student who came on the course because basketwork was full insists that half of 0.7 = 0.3 isn't an acceptable approximation. The RYA Navigation textbook only calculates to one place of decimals -- in fact, at one point it says "58% of 4.3m is 2.49 (2.5 for practical purposes)"

In fact a lot of the RYA stuff is like that. When doing RYA plotting exercises the only way to get the 'right' answer is to use the nearest diamond, even though it is clear the topography means the area of the diamond is doing something totally different.

The alternative is to have every student in a class of perhaps 20 working an exercise using their own guesstimate of the tidal stream. Very time-consuming to mark, very error-prone, and disheartening for the student if all the work they put in is devalued because they made a different assumption about the tidal stream. So the RYA specifies a precise value.

for someone who just wants to know how to sail safely, is it necessary to learn the official methods only to go on to the shorthand version that most experienced people use?

Shorthand versions have their place, but there have been several threads on here recently (and one still running) that show just how dangerous and ill-informed some of these "shorthand" versions can be.

As an experienced sailor helping someone else to get started, would you for example start them off on tidal diamonds or would you show them how to use the tidal stream atlas and chartlets?

Personally I'd use tidal stream atlas. I expect most instructors would. That is why the use of tidal stream atlasses is included in the navigation element of every RYA course from Essential Navigation and Seamanship to Yachtmaster Offshore.

Where does this myth about the RYA insisting on everyone using tidal diamonds come from? Or are you suggesting that tidal diamonds should not be taught -- leaving us with "Yachtmasters" who can't cope with anything other than tidal stream atlassses?

 

[Ubergeekian]

Is it RYA policy to undermine peoples confidence by instilling a sense of trepidation and fear about their capabilites? Or did you come up with this on your own?

It seems obvious to me that there should be some sort of diagnostic quiz / pre-assessment to help people choose which theory course to start with. Some of it would be boating knowledge ("What do these five chart symbols mean?") and some of it would be the mathematical skills involved ("If you travel one mile north, one mile east and one mile north west, where do you end up?"). I've looked on the RYA website, and can't find one, though.

Is there any reason why the theory could not be tested in standalone exams, too, rather than forcing candidates to take courses?

 

[timbartlett]

Take the calculation of tidal offsets for plotting course to steer. To navigate safely it is sufficient to know how to get the info from a tidal stream atlas but to pass RYA shorebased courses you have to be able to do it using the diamonds.

You don't "pass" an RYA shorebased course: you get a course completion certificate. And I, for one, think it is quite reasonable to expect someone to have completed at least most of the course before they are handed a course completion certificate.

For normal coastal cruising, most of us use GPS fixes but you have to be able to do fixes by cross bearings for the RYA.

Horrific. Fancy anyone thinking that a navigation course might cover one of the most basic navigational techniques -- one that is applicable at every level from dinghy sailing in the Solent to crossing oceans.

Just for fun, I looked out the syllabus that applied when I took my YM. It included swinging a compass, fixing by horizontal sextant angles, radio direction finding, the use of Consol, the use of a hand lead and line and rotating neon echo sounder, and being able to send and receive morse code by light at 4 wpm.

Lots of that stuff is irrelevant, so it has gone. Quite right too. GPS has come in. And the basics (like tidal stream atlasses ) have stayed.

A course to steer can be obtained by trying different headings until the GPS track is the same as the true bearing of the destination but that won't wash with the RYA.

It does wash with the RYA: it's in page 92 of the RYA Navigation Handbook. But for any passage lasting longer than an hour, it becomes progressively less and less valid, and in very strong tidal streams, it makes some passages impossible. Are you suggesting that students shouldn't be taught how to calculate an efficient course in case they find it too difficult?

So my point is that if the pupil is not interested in paper qualifications there are plenty of things that can be taught differently or skipped altogether.

If the pupil is not interested in paper qualifications, they can skip the whole course, and pick whatever they want from any source they want. The problem, dare I say, are the students who are interested only in the paper qualifications, but don't want to have to learn anything in order to get them!

 

[timbartlett]

Is there any reason why the theory could not be tested in standalone exams, too, rather than forcing candidates to take courses?

No-one is "forced" to take a shore-based course. Everyone has the option of doing so. Some see it as an end in itself. Many others regard it as a means of preparing themselves for an exam.

 

[Ubergeekian]

No-one is "forced" to take a shore-based course. Everyone has the option of doing so. Some see it as an end in itself. Many others regard it as a means of preparing themselves for an exam.

Which exam is that?

 

[timbartlett]

Which exam is that?

Advanced Powerboat, Yachtmaster Coastal, Yachtmaster Offshore, or Yachtmaster Ocean.

 

[Ubergeekian]

Advanced Powerboat, Yachtmaster Coastal, Yachtmaster Offshore, or Yachtmaster Ocean.

Exactly. So why no standalone navigation theory exams?

 

[snowleopard]

Going back to the original question -

I've just books up to do the day skipper course how hard is it I'm a bit worried in case I can't do it

If you have GCSE Maths and English or feel you have equivalent knowledge you can do the course. If you failed maths or think you would fail if you tried then you might struggle.

If you do the course and put in the time to do the exercises and learn the factual stuff you will have no trouble with the exam.

 

[jerrytug]

Writing as a student of sailing,shortly to attempt my YM Coastal Exam,this is a fascinating discussion. I would welcome the introduction of a shore-based course teaching the Colregs and Chartwork to a higher level than that provided in the YM Theory course. For Met there are various higher level courses already available elsewhere. (In general I thought the YM Theory was well-pitched,I`m not implying it is lacking).
I am trying to get a better working knowledge of the Colregs and it is rather turgid going without the human interaction of a bearded master,only dry books and CD-ROMS etc.
If anyone reading this could suggest a course taking me deeper into the Colregs,preferably testing my knowledge, if any, with an exam,I would be grateful. Perhaps something like an `O` level,but it doesn`t seem to exist. Thanks in advance for any suggestions,Jerry.