How big is too big

[fishy]

At the moment we have a 28 ft twister which we love sailing and enjoy very much. We would like however to have somewhat more space eg so we don't have to draw lots as to which of us can stand up at any one time.
We are not exactly on what John Updike refers to as the long descent to final touchdown but we are both over fifty. We are also relatively inexperienced.
I am anxious that if we move up in size too much we will find it difficult to handle as we sail mainly on our own. Can anyone advise what is the maximum length for a couple such as us to easily and safely handle or is it more a question of sail area. We would like to remain with a long keeled boat.Thanks in anticipation.

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[Talbot]

The maximum size that two people can manage has less to do with actual boat size, and more to do with equipment carried, after all I am sure you dont plan to go as large as a 75ft trimaran, but <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.solarnavigator.net/ellen_mac_arthur.htm>Ellen Macarthur</A> manages that on her own!

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[Phoenix of Hamble]

Yep,

Everything led back to the cockpit, furling foresail, lazyjacks on the main, or a furling system, electric windlass, self tailing winches and bobs yer uncle.....

Also, a modern short fin keel, with a powerful engine is very maneouverable, and can be managed quite easily with practice.....

Then, after all this, think about the size you need.... I short handed a Gib-Sea 42 footer (eg 2 people) for 2 years with no problems at all.....

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[tcm]

I agree with the others - the type of rig and gear determines how feasible it is with just two on board.

I wd say that with more space than 28ft you can actually have an easier rather than tougher time - more room for better kit, easier to move around, and more room to take upaid crew for longer passages.


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[John_N]

Consider a modest increase to 32ft loa. I would heartily recommend a Sadler 32 for your needs. Not a hefty increase in cost either.

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[Peppermint]

Re:It\'s not the size but the equipment.

It's pretty straight forward to singlehand boats that are designed to be easy to sail.

In the old days gear was heavy and mechanical advantage was hard to find so the path to ease was through dividing the sail plan into sections. So ketch rig and cutter foresails make the effort less.

Modern inventions to help fall into two main catogories. Friction/weight reducers and powered assistance. A modern 40ft sloop, with a laminate main on ballbearing battencars and a decent two speed winch will rise with similar effort to your 28ft.
Add in a well thought out lazyjack set and perhaps a stack pack sail cover, decent single line reefing and lead the lot back to the cockpit and your in business. Furling headsails, with good quality blocks and a fairlead to a winch for control and your in business.

Clearly you can have powered winches but it's something else to go wrong and if you start out with them and find you can't do without them mid voyage you'll be stuck. The only powered winch thats worth it's price is the windlass for the anchor. Unless you've a lifting keel in mind.

For short handed manouvering/mooring a bowthruster is worth the trouble to.

So provided you work at reducing friction, improving leads and watch the weight a well organized couple can sail quite big boats. Get all of these things wrong and a 20ft'er can be a killer.

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[LadyInBed]

Me thinks you first have to make the decision between size, performance, accommodation and looks (and maybe even snob value!) as one criteria doesn’t necessarily incorporate another.
e.g. the Westerly Konsort and LM27 are both 28ft boats with good size accommodation but totally different looks and performance.

Oh! And filling in your profile helps a bit /forums/images/icons/wink.gif


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[Landale]

Probably a lot bigger than you think.

A Moody 31 with all lines brought aft can be handled singlehanded quite easily in most conditions by someone even as neurologically challenged as me!

I know that doesn't perhaps extrapolate.

Your experience and knowledge is by far the most important thing, although you obviously require adequate physical strength.

He says having seen two people this afternoon make a serious pigs ear of berthing an 18ft launch for the first time and they were far from making the turn on to finals .

I think those of us who are perhaps rather closer to lowering our landing gear than others should go for it and show the the rest we ain't finished YET!!



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[Rob_Webb]

If set up correctly you'll find very little difference once under way between a 28footer and a 35 footer. Obviously sails and loads are larger but the gear should bo correspondingly more powerful to deal with it. That leaves the close quarter manouvering as the biggest potential change. But again, if you already have experience, understand the fundamentals of boat handling and have an adequate powerplant, you will be suprised how easy it can be. I have gone from 27ft to 35ft and actually find my 35 footer EASIER to handle. This is because at sea the motion of the bigger boat is easier to live with. And when berthing, she doesn't drift off the intended track as quickly as a smaller, lighter boat i.e. everything happens more slowly in a bigger boat.

Personally, I'd say that this rule applies up to about 40ft at which point the sheer extra size and weight does start to make itself felt and can become a bit daunting to a size-sensitive couple. But again, not for everyone, and many couples happily sail far bigger boats than this.

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[LadyInBed]

Re: Setup

I'm not too sure about this “if it’s all set up properly” school of thought.
I went from a 22 footer to a fairly heavy 33 footer. It was initially quite daunting but I do about 85% of my sailing single-handed and soon got the hang of it. Neither boat has all lines tailed back to the cockpit, but roller reefing headsail and a good autohelm is a must. Raising, lowering, reefing the main are all one-man jobs so the autohelm does the helmsman’s job. Coming along side and picking up moorings are easier mob handed but with forethought and preparation they can be done on your own, and that really is the point. If you don’t prepare properly and think the job through you can make a right horlix of it no matter how many are onboard.
I accept that there is a boat size and conditions where help is required.


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[AliM]

We had exactly the same requirements - same age etc, but a lot less experience. We went for a Moody 31, and have no regrets. HWMO has singlehanded it (in the Baltic once we had sailed it there from the UK), and we've done canals, locks, open sea, decent length passages, very crowded marinas, quite nasty weather, the works, between the two of us. (It's now back in the UK.) I think we could have gone for a slightly larger boat, but the Moody suits us. I'd endorse most of the shopping list other people have mentioned - particularly decent autopilot, but haven't felt the need for a bow-thruster (although with a long-keeler it may be more relevant), and raising sails and anchor by hand has been no problem so far.

Main advice would be to try out and view as many boats as you can get to. If you are nervous when you first buy it, get a day's own-boat tuition on the new boat. And enjoy it !

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[rwoofer]

I actually sail my 44 footer singlehanded all the time- was out this weekend on it

The secret to it is proper preparation in everything you do ie. think through every situation beforehand and make sure you know what to do with each eventuality. The way I got into it was to practice all the things singlehanded/shorthanded, but with the extra crew on standby (you really do need to tell them not to do anything).

The hardest thing is parking in marinas. I take my time figure out the wind/tides, go and have a look at the berth (without berthing) and then preset all the lines for the situation.

RB

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[pvb]

The bigger the boat...

Up to a point, the bigger the boat, the easier it is to handle. I'd bet you'd find no problems using a 35-40 footer. I sail my 35-footer singlehanded a lot of the time, with no problems. Bigger boats are steadier in the water, and react more slowly and reassuringly. They are also more predictable when manouevring into tight marina berths.

If you are looking around, might I suggest you take a close look at centre-cockpit boats? They have a lot of advantages when sailing either single-handed or short-handed. And, with the cockpit being closer to the boat's centre of motion, they can give a more comfortable sailing experience.

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[castaway]

I would go along with the general drift of opinion that a reasonably well set up 36ft boat will be no more difficult to handle than the Twister.

However I would just say that the real difference will be in the costs, unless you have some nice deal a club, yr mooring, haul out, and hard standing tends to go up more than pro rata these days ie most yards have a higher 'per ft rate' over 30ft. but its stuff like antifoul where you find that it starts to gobble up twice as much to say nothing of big engines new sails replacement winches etc.etc. I would guess that 28ft up to 36ft would double the running costs.

Having said all that there are a couple of Moody Halberdiers for sale at present. Decent performance and all the comfort of home! I love mine and you do get good value per ft/length/cost.

<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.yachtsite.co.uk/fairweather>http://www.yachtsite.co.uk/fairweather</A>

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[brianhumber]

Re:Agree

Ronhilda ( 45') is sailed with husband and wife just as easily as with 10 on.
With less crew preplanning sail changes, use of the autohelm, lazy jacks are paramount.
I do not find the lack of a bowthruster any problem but as I get older I might consider a windlass.

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[pragmatist]

We moved from a Sadler 29 to a Rival 41 with no real problems. The nature of the boat, weight, longer keel, small engine made us think of new ways to do things. And there are also things which we had to recognise as impossible - reversing into a berth (until we got our bow thruster) was simply not an option.

Effectively we sail as 1 or 1.5 of us since if things get interesting the dogs need looking after. But other than the weight of the gear - raising the main is much harder work so we added a self-tailer - there's nothing to regret and a great deal to enjoy (assuming someone would give us some decent weather !).

I do agree about costs though - it does begin to get very silly. And you might also find with the huge nummber of people who seem to be moving to 35ft+ that berths are hard to find.

Whatever you do - enjoy it !

<hr width=100% size=1>a pragmatist is an optimist with a boat in the UK - but serious about not being in the UK !

 

[Mirelle]

A couple of old rules of thumb

(the masculine imports the feminine in what follows!)

Uffa Fox says that 500sq ft in the mainsail is the largest sail, that one (fit, young, agile!) man can handle by himself.

Eric Hiscock says that a 45lb CQR is about as much anchor as one man can routinely handle.

We have a 37ft gaff cutter with 427 sq ft in the mainsail and a 45lbs CQR, stowed on deck. I reckon the above rules are about right. I do singlehand her without thinking twice about it.

You can certainly handle a larger boat if you have gadgets, eg powered windlass/winches, in mast reefing, and so on.



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[ccscott49]

Depends what your used to I guess, I've sailed my boat single handed and she is 57 feet, but now she is getting too much for me, so I'm downsizing to 46 feet, single screw, bow thruster for manouvering, in mast roller reefing, roller reefing yankee, roller staysail. so no real problems. So in some ways the biggest boat you could handle, is dependant on its equipment, electric winches for halyards sheets, halyards, anchor etc. I am also over 50.

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[tome]

We moved from 28 ft to 37 ft and have had no problems. I did make some changes to make her easier for short-handed sailing. Main is 250 sq ft, genoa 500 sq ft. Wife and I handle it easily, I occasionally single-hand.

Biggest boat I've sailed single handed was 47ft and the sails were a bit of a challenge without ST winches on halyards but ok. If she were mine, I'd have made some changes to her also.

We are looking at going up to a 44ft cutter rigged boat praps and not worried about handling either alone or as a couple. I'm quite lightly built (racing snake) and SWMBO isn't strong, but we manage fine.

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[lydiamight]

Had to make the same sort of decisions myself recently. Settled on a Dehler 36 CWS. Everything bought back to the cockpit and a nice powerful electric winch to take the sting out out of raisng sails, reefing etc. Self tacking headsail completes the ease with which it can sailed. Optional large genoa and spinnaker if you have more crew and want to "play" Not quite as beamy as a bang up to date AWB but still plenty of room down below and a design which still looks modern.

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