Hot Liquid: the response

[toad_oftoadhall]

The owner ought to have taken note of the weather & discussed it with his skipper, who was taking on crew who were actually paying to delivery the boat.
there is a "Duty of care" that seemingly was ignored

The owner employed a skipper to make those judgements. In this case the owner seems to have been a sailor. Supposing the owner was not a sailor. Would a qualified RYA skipper have to ok his plans with an non-sailor owner?

What if the owner was off sick or on holiday? Would a random non-sailor person in the office have to tell the qualified skipper if it's ok to sail or not?

It's perfectly reasonable for a firm to hire someone to take responsibility for these kinds of decisions. The skipper is the sole person who needs to be involved in the decision.

If I hire a qualified guy to work on my gas and he blows my house up, it's not my fault, it's his.

Who certified the skipper as qualified to make these judgements? Who certified the crew? Ahhh, the RYA. No wonder they're so desperate to make HL a scapegoat.

Looks like there will be a trial. We'll have some facts then.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

Next time I get a speeding ticket, I'll blame the DVLA - they gave me my driving license.

Next time you get a speeding ticket in a hire car will the hire company get shut down for trusting you with the car?

 

[ace_bridger]

A wise man is one who realises that learning is a life long exercise...not a level to be achieved.

All effective industries and businesses have Continued Professional Development (CPD) as they recognise that everyone needs to learn and develop. A good business invests time and resources in the people in the front line. Sail training (no hyphon needed) is no different.

Mistakes were made. People make mistakes. I think people would think more of the RYA if they acted from a senior position, as the 'experts' in this field, and worked with HL.

To just withdraw HL's recognition says to the world that they, the RYA, have a really poor Quality Assurance management plan.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

You really don't understand how the RYA training system and accreditation works do you.

I think HL passed these paying mile builders for their "tickets" as you call them.

Please read my post and engage your brain before responding.

 

[ace_bridger]

It's perfectly reasonable for a firm to hire someone to take responsibility for these kinds of decisions. The skipper is the sole person who needs to be involved in the decision.

If I hire a qualified guy to work on my gas and he blows my house up, it's not my fault, it's his.

Who certified the skipper as qualified to make these judgements? Who certified the crew? Ahhh, the RYA. No wonder they're so desperate to make HL a scapegoat.

Damn right!! Thank you Toad.

 

[ace_bridger]

You really don't understand how the RYA training system and accreditation works do you.

I think HL passed these paying mile builders for their "tickets" as you call them.

You clearly don't understand how the RYA training scheme works...they DO NOT offer accreditation...they RECOGNISE. A subtle but fundamental difference highlighted very vocally by the RYA.

 

[Stork_III]

You clearly don't understand how the RYA training scheme works...they DO NOT offer accreditation...they RECOGNISE. A subtle but fundamental difference highlighted very vocally by the RYA.

DNFTT

 

[Searush]

3 strikes & you're out seems pretty fair to me.

Are you saying that HL couldn't have learned from their earlier mistakes to help prevent this one without RYA "guidance"? That seems daft to me.

As a Chartered Electrical Engineer I am required to follow the recommendations of my trade body, If I don't I could lose my qualification. They don't monitor me, but if my work injures someone I am in the dock, not them.

The skipper in this case was revelling in the possibility of a storm, but his crew were Comp Crew & Day Skippers, none of whom had experience of such conditions & who trusted the judgement of a gung-ho commercially endorsed skipper. HL did not concern themselves with the probable risks to their boat & its paying crewmembers. That sounds like negligence to me.

 

[ace_bridger]

DNFTT

Clearly you're a teenager.

 

[Stork_III]

Clearly you're a teenager.

I wish.

 

[Searush]

Clearly you're a teenager.

And your point is?

Perhaps if your logic fails the then attempting to belittle someone is the best answer?

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

As a Chartered Electrical Engineer I am required to follow the recommendations of my trade body, If I don't I could lose my qualification. They don't monitor me, but if my work injures someone I am in the dock, not them.

Isn't that the whole point? You're accredited by your trade body. If you screw up you lose the qualification, not the poor sod who employed you on the basis of that qualification.

 

[ace_bridger]

As a Chartered Electrical Engineer I am required to follow the recommendations of my trade body, If I don't I could lose my qualification. They don't monitor me, but if my work injures someone I am in the dock, not them.

Exactly, as a CENG, if you screw up you're in court, not your employer. So why is HL been scapegoated here? They're the employer. With your analogy, the skipper should be the focus of things ...not HL.

 

[DaveS]

As a Chartered Electrical Engineer I am required to follow the recommendations of my trade body, If I don't I could lose my qualification. They don't monitor me, but if my work injures someone I am in the dock, not them.

I think the IET prefer to regard themselves as a professional institution rather than a trade body, but otherwise I entirely agree.

 

[Rigger Mortice]

All effective industries and businesses have Continued Professional Development (CPD) as they recognise that everyone needs to learn and develop. A good business invests time and resources in the people in the front line. Sail training (no hyphon needed) is no different.

What CPD did HL have in place? How much time and resources have HL invested in its front line people?

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

And your point is?

Perhaps if your logic fails the then attempting to belittle someone is the best answer?

Errr, no Stork's logic failed so he started to the personal stuff. AB was just replying to Stork's belittling.

 

[Searush]

Isn't that the whole point? You're accredited by your trade body. If you screw up you lose the qualification, not the poor sod who employed you on the basis of that qualification.

In law, HL has a duty of care to their staff & customers. They seem to have ignored that simple fact. If the gas man blows up your house, you (or your insurers or your estate) will sue the company not the individual.

 

[photodog]

The owner employed a skipper to make those judgements. In this case the owner seems to have been a sailor. Supposing the owner was not a sailor. Would a qualified RYA skipper have to ok his plans with an non-sailor owner?

What if the owner was off sick or on holiday? Would a random non-sailor person in the office have to tell the qualified skipper if it's ok to sail or not?

.

Once again.. missed the point. The company has responsibility for the health and safety of its guests and employees... the company cannot abrogate that responsiblity to a third party... (and in this case probably a self employed third party).. the company has to have a robust structure in place to manage risk.

Its not a option.. its not something which can be abrogated to a contractor...

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

What CPD did HL have in place? How much time and resources have HL invested in its front line people?

I'd assumed the skipper was a contractor and not an FTE, but that might be wrong?

 

[sailorman]

In law, HL has a duty of care to their staff & customers. They seem to have ignored that simple fact. If the gas man blows up your house, you (or your insurers or your estate) will sue the company not the individual.

the skipper was employed by HL to undertake that delivery trip on their behalf