Hot Liquid: the response

[ace_bridger]

What CPD did HL have in place? How much time and resources have HL invested in its front line people?

They employ skippers who hold CI or YMI tickets, QA done by the RYA. HL are not responsible for the training of their skippers...the RYA are.

 

[ace_bridger]

I think the IET prefer to regard themselves as a professional institution rather than a trade body, but otherwise I entirely agree.

They will refer to themsleves as an 'institute', not an institution...but I agree with your point.

 

[capnsensible]

Exactly, as a CENG, if you screw up you're in court, not your employer. So why is HL been scapegoated here? They're the employer. With your analogy, the skipper should be the focus of things ...not HL.

Sheesh, you reckon you have been a Chief Instructor? Did you not learn anything? Did you ever read the RYA Guidance notes for training centres? Like you are supposed to?

Did you ever attend the annual inspection where the School Safety Policy is reviewed?

Did you ever read the bit about the principal or a nominated deputy has the responsibility for safety? Or the bit about training for staff, etc, etc?

Doesnt sound like it.

Best dust off your copy, eh!

Take the money and Kerching, you take the responsibilities that go with it.

Least I expect no better from that toad

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

Once again.. missed the point. The company has responsibility for the health and safety of its guests and employees... the company cannot abrogate that responsiblity to a third party... (and in this case probably a self employed third party).. the company has to have a robust structure in place to manage risk.

Its not a option.. its not something which can be abrogated to a contractor...

But that would require the company to have, in house, every single skill they hire contractors for? Which is clearly impossible.

What's the point in hiring a qualified skipper if the unqualified people in the office have to tell him when to go out or not?

More importantly who would you get to write that policy? You'd have to hire a qualified Commercial YM. So you you trust him, or do you hire a third.

Having said all that there must be some evidence that HL did something wrong or the MCA wouldn't be taking them to court. It will be interesting to see what that's all about.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

They employ skippers who hold CI or YMI tickets, QA done by the RYA. HL are not responsible for the training of their skippers...the RYA are.

+1

 

[VO5]

I recommend some light gardening (maybe even driving) gloves to protect the sensitive bits. I managed to get cut under the fingernail by the folded-over edge of a mainsail when tidying it up before I took to such gloves...

Mike.

And what about clawcutting drill before sailing ? Yes ? No ?

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

Did you ever attend the annual inspection where the School Safety Policy is reviewed?

So HL *must* have an adequate School Safety Policy which has been reveiwed every 12 months?

 

[dt4134]

Exactly, as a CENG, if you screw up you're in court, not your employer. So why is HL been scapegoated here? They're the employer. With your analogy, the skipper should be the focus of things ...not HL.

I don't think they've been scapegoated. They already had the previous incidents hanging over them. The RYA couldn't avoid acting as a fourth incident may have involved fatalities.

Here's a bit of the MAIB report on Liquid Vortex in the RORC Myth of Malham race

RECOMMENDATIONS
Hot Liquid Sailing Ltd is recommended to:
2011/148 Establish a robust safety management system to ensure:
• The risks to its vessels and crews engaged in commercial operations are identified and thoroughly assessed
• Comprehensive operational procedures and guidance are developed to mitigate such risks
• Management oversight to ensure compliance with its procedures, once these are established.

Sounds like the MAIB were pretty clear what they thought needed to be done.

The RYA themselves are not working in a vacuum, they have the MCA looking over their shoulder.

 

[ace_bridger]

Let's face it...none of us have all the facts, just opinions.

I just think it's a real shame that HL have been left out to dry by the very people who should support them.

 

[sailorman]

I don't think they've been scapegoated. They already had the previous incidents hanging over them. The RYA couldn't avoid acting as a fourth incident may have involved fatalities.

Here's a bit of the MAIB report on Liquid Vortex in the RORC Myth of Malham race

RECOMMENDATIONS
Hot Liquid Sailing Ltd is recommended to:
2011/148 Establish a robust safety management system to ensure:
• The risks to its vessels and crews engaged in commercial operations are identified and thoroughly assessed
• Comprehensive operational procedures and guidance are developed to mitigate such risks
• Management oversight to ensure compliance with its procedures, once these are established.

Sounds like the MAIB were pretty clear what they thought needed to be done.

The RYA themselves are not working in a vacuum, they have the MCA looking over their shoulder.

Good post

 

[photodog]

Let's face it...none of us have all the facts, just opinions.

I just think it's a real shame that HL have been left out to dry by the very people who should support them.

Did you read the post above?

 

[capnsensible]

So HL *must* have an adequate School Safety Policy which has been reveiwed every 12 months?

Of course it does. And if is not adequate, it must be corrected.

I am sure you are capable of calling the RYA and asking for a copy of RGN1 Guidance notes.

Like a lot of businesses, sail schools are regulated and must comply to defined standards. Bit obvious, really.

 

[VO5]

Reading all of this toing and frowing on this thread...

And why does a wheel steered boat set sail without an emergency tiller in the locker ?

And why does a sailing vessel set sail without a drogue on board in case of need ?

And why does a sailing vessel set sail expecting inclement weather not reefed down already ( or rigged with a trysail) and flying a storm jib ?

And why does a sailing vessel set sail into inclement weather which is expected to worsen, not improve ?

Why set sail at all ?

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

RECOMMENDATIONS
Hot Liquid Sailing Ltd is recommended to:
2011/148 Establish a robust safety management system to ensure:
• The risks to its vessels and crews engaged in commercial operations are identified and thoroughly assessed
• Comprehensive operational procedures and guidance are developed to mitigate such risks
• Management oversight to ensure compliance with its procedures, once these are established.

Sounds like the MAIB were pretty clear what they thought needed to be done.

The RYA themselves are not working in a vacuum, they have the MCA looking over their shoulder.

THere might be all sorts of stuff that HL have done wrong for which they deserve to lose their recognition.

But the RYA's withdrawl of recognized status the day before the MCA started to prosecute HL and the Skipper makes me think this withdrawl of recognition is entirely due to that. It's to close to be coincidence.

...and that's not fair.

 

[VO5]

Answers:~

Because...the skipper was not trained properly.
Because...the skipper ignored meteorological synoptics.
Because...the skipper sailed unprepared.
Because...the skipper should not have sailed at all, pressure or no pressure, period.

 

[madmitch]

This was the third 'incident' involving HL in two years - just how much education does HL need?

They were accidents, nobody died, lessons to learn. There are other schools in the solent, still RYA accredited, that have had deaths.......I wonder if the truth is that the RYA thought that they needed to be seen to act and thought better to make an example of HL than pick a fight with one of the big boys?

 

[ace_bridger]

Sheesh, you reckon you have been a Chief Instructor? Did you not learn anything? Did you ever read the RYA Guidance notes for training centres? Like you are supposed to?

Did you ever attend the annual inspection where the School Safety Policy is reviewed?

Did you ever read the bit about the principal or a nominated deputy has the responsibility for safety? Or the bit about training for staff, etc, etc?

Doesnt sound like it.

Best dust off your copy, eh!

Take the money and Kerching, you take the responsibilities that go with it.

Least I expect no better from that toad

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes & yes.

So you think that the RYA documentation negates the duty on them to support one of their schools?

The RYA cannot survive if schools are not successful and they have a responsibility to work with their schools when times are good as well as when they are bad.

This decision makes the RYA look bad as they are saying, "this school is so bad it needs to be shut down" which says, "we don't really keep an eye on our schools and have no way of monitoring the quality of delivery of RYA courses".

Despite all 3 incidents not being RYA courses...yada yada yada

 

[Rigger Mortice]

They employ skippers who hold CI or YMI tickets, QA done by the RYA. HL are not responsible for the training of their skippers...the RYA are.

The RYA does not provide training. It sets the syllabus and recognises the schools who deliver the training. It also makes it clear that the Principals of the schools are the ones who are responsible.
If the RYA were to do more such as provide continual professional training or monitor everything which the schools do then who is going to pay? At present there is an annual inspection.

In any event, this problem does not appear to be the training of the skipper but the management regime which was in force.

It is ridiculous to blame the RYA for the shortcomings of the school.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

Of course it does.

So HL are in the clear as far as that goes then.

 

[capnsensible]

THere might be all sorts of stuff that HL have done wrong for which they deserve to lose their recognition.

But the RYA's withdrawl of recognized status the day before the MCA started to prosecute HL and the Skipper makes me think this withdrawl of recognition is entirely due to that. It's to close to be coincidence.

...and that's not fair.

Cobblers again. It was the first meeting of the Training Committee since the incident. At a previously promulgated date.