Hot Liquid: the response

I could make so many comments about the uneducated and viscous comments and opinions on this thread but I'd be here all day.

For those of you who work in the industry (sail training) you'll appreciate and understand the comments which follow.

For those of you who are keen weekend warriors, please ignore them. You must continue to shout your opinions...that way you're much more likely to convince someone that you have high levels of seamanship. Keep going you'll get there.

The premise under which the RYA has always been 'Education, not regulation'. The decision to ban HL from operating practical courses was an incorrect one. They have regulated HL, not educated them.

The RYA are 'the experts' in sail training and should be working with HL to offer advice to improve things in areas where they feel appropriate. After all, they are the 'experts'.

I've been Chief Instructor at a number of Solent schools and have seen the RYA trample over 'their' YMIs on more than one occasion. Regarding the HL business, they have reacted to satisfy the media and ignorant people on this forum.

My thoughts are with the owner of HL and his family.
 
ace_bridger said:
I could make so many comments about the uneducated and viscous comments and opinions on this thread but I'd be here all day.

For those of you who work in the industry (sail training) you'll appreciate and understand the comments which follow.

For those of you who are keen weekend warriors, please ignore them. You must continue to shout your opinions...that way you're much more likely to convince someone that you have high levels of seamanship. Keep going you'll get there.

The premise under which the RYA has always been 'Education, not regulation'. The decision to ban HL from operating practical courses was an incorrect one. They have regulated HL, not educated them.

The RYA are 'the experts' in sail training and should be working with HL to offer advice to improve things in areas where they feel appropriate. After all, they are the 'experts'.

I've been Chief Instructor at a number of Solent schools and have seen the RYA trample over 'their' YMIs on more than one occasion. Regarding the HL business, they have reacted to satisfy the media and ignorant people on this forum.

My thoughts are with the owner of HL and his family.
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Dont talk twaddle... HL have a responsibility to ensure that their managment structure properly reflects and manages risk.

Clearly with 3 serious incidents they have a big problem.

You can sympathise all you like with the owner... but he failed to do this... and like any business he is now paying that price.

The RYA are quite correct and obliged to withdraw their accreditation if there is a managment failure in the company such that they are incapable of managing one of the most basic elements of corporate responsibility.
 
photodog said:
Dont talk twaddle... HL have a responsibility to ensure that their managment structure properly reflects and manages risk.

Clearly with 3 serious incidents they have a big problem.

You can sympathise all you like with the owner... but he failed to do this... and like any business he is now paying that price.

The RYA are quite correct and obliged to withdraw their accreditation if there is a managment failure in the company such that they are incapable of managing one of the most basic elements of corporate responsibility.
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The RYA do not offer accreditation, they 'recognise' training centres. Anyone with a basic knowledge of sail training the RYA way would know this.

Risk by it's very nature means that one cannot mitigate entirely. Three incidents in 2 years? Well why did the RYA not offer advice or education in that time. 2 years they had to offer assistance and education but no, they wade in once the media gets involved and act politically...get rid of the key people and hope the fuss dies down.

They did this in the fall out of GMIV running aground. Blame an individual and hope the fuss goes away rather than educating, improving and moving forwards.

They are in the business of educating and they need a fundamental culture change of they are come into the modern age.

Yes, i am sympathetic to the owner but just take a step back and think. We, in sail training, always look at situations and draw out the learning opportunities. This is one such opportunity and to leave HL out to dry is wrong. Fact.
 
ace_bridger said:
Well why did the RYA not offer advice or education in that time. 2 years they had to offer assistance and education but no, they wade in once the media gets involved and act politically....
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Do you know that they didn't discuss the earlier incidents with HL or is that an assumption?

It seems to me that RYA has done exactly the right thing; they do not owe HL a living but they are there to ensure that their courses are run properly.

Odds are, now that they have removed "recognition" they will be working with HL to get its operation back in order. Once that has been done then recognition will be given once more.

I'm glad to see that RYA is policing things properly. I need to be confident, when I book a course, that the school is properly managed.
 
ace_bridger said:
We, in sail training, always look at situations and draw out the learning opportunities. This is one such opportunity and to leave HL out to dry is wrong. Fact.
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To be fair, I think the aftermath of the incident during the RORC race was that opportunity. There was an element of final warning about that MAIB report. I believe the RYA were involved in that.
 
If the RYA were monitoring 'their' schools and were offering continuous traing and development this incident may not have happened. Policing after the incident does not show that they are policing efficiently, it highlight shuge flaws in the RYA way of doing things.

To answer another question: If there had been SW >F7 forecast I would not have gone. I can't comment on what forecast the skipper had and when the updated forecast was received.

I hope the RYA work with HL to allow them regain recognition once more. The majority of sailing schools are run by genuine sailing enthusiasts trying to get people on the water. HL are this kind of school. They don't make a fortune, just a living wage under difficuly circumstances.
 
ace_bridger said:
If the RYA were monitoring 'their' schools and were offering continuous traing and development this incident may not have happened. Policing after the incident does not show that they are policing efficiently, it highlight shuge flaws in the RYA way of doing things.

To answer another question: If there had been SW >F7 forecast I would not have gone. I can't comment on what forecast the skipper had and when the updated forecast was received.

I hope the RYA work with HL to allow them regain recognition once more. The majority of sailing schools are run by genuine sailing enthusiasts trying to get people on the water. HL are this kind of school. They don't make a fortune, just a living wage under difficuly circumstances.
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The forecast was for F10 later. The skipper even put it on Twitter before he left.
 
It's easy to judge once the brown stuff has hit the fan. Much more difficult to offer advice and guidance to stop it before things go wrong.

The RYA have a long history of not supporting 'their' schools when things go wrong.
 
ace_bridger said:
It's easy to judge once the brown stuff has hit the fan. Much more difficult to offer advice and guidance to stop it before things go wrong.

The RYA have a long history of not supporting 'their' schools when things go wrong.
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The owner ought to have taken note of the weather & discussed it with his skipper, who was taking on crew who were actually paying to delivery the boat.
there is a "Duty of care" that seemingly was ignored
 
ace_bridger said:
If the RYA were monitoring 'their' schools and were offering continuous traing and development this incident may not have happened. Policing after the incident does not show that they are policing efficiently, it highlight shuge flaws in the RYA way of doing things.

.
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Its not the RYA's job to tell a principle how to run their business... this is the point that you seem to be missing...

Its not about the sailing or the instructing of said... its a failure in the managment function of the business. The RYA has nothing to do with this... and rightly so... but they do have a responsibility to ensure that the training centers they recognise are responsible organisations that are capable of delivering a high quality safe experience to their customers... in this case they have decided that HL does not have the managment structure in place to do so... look at their statement.

The three incidents point not to a failure in basic instruction.. but a systemic failure to manage risk....

The RYA have no role in advising customers/training centers about managment functions... They train sailors not offer MBA's....

So to say that they should have offered training and support is nonsense. its not their role, and they are not equipped. Managing risk in a corporate structure is a managment function that is universal to all businesses...


its not about the sailing, its about the business.


Though as a aside I would also add that there must have been something wrong with their training as well... if they were sending out skippers and students who felt that decisions such as were made on the past two London-Portsmouth January passages are anything to go by...

Frankly either a business is a safe and appropriate organisation to offer training... or its not.

Customers dont pay for instruction by people who themselves are undergoing training and instruction... Either the company is qualified or its not... if they need retraining then they are not.


Why do some people seem to think that the sailing industry is any different from any normal business??
 
ace_bridger said:
It's easy to judge once the brown stuff has hit the fan. Much more difficult to offer advice and guidance to stop it before things go wrong.
.
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That is were you are totally wrong, and if that was the attitude of HL then they have a serious problem.
 
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