Hot Liquid: the response

Qualified Crew

Going back to the subject of how many qualified crew are required (I've been out sailing for the day, not UK, so only now catching up).

My experience is that for corporate race days and the like on a 40.7, 2 paid crew are supplied. A qualified skipper and a mate, not necessarily qualified but experienced. A 40.7 is a handful in strong gusty conditions, ask the owners of Flying Fish (Laser 28 on the Hamble) which was sunk by one on a start line a couple of years ago.

FWIW, I think the following is the current crewing requirement for MCA Coding on yachts up to 24m. The linkages on the MCA site are all a bit obscure so I could easily be wrong (it came from here):

2.2 Qualifications Required

2.2.1 Voyages up to 20 miles from a safe haven - operating area category 3 or 4

The skipper should hold at least an RYA/DTp Certificate of Competency as Coastal Skipper (Sailing)

2.2.2 Voyages of up to 60 miles from a safe haven - operating area category 2

The skipper should hold at least an RYA/DTp Certificate of Competency as Yachtmaster Offshore (Sailing).

There should also be on board a second person deemed by the skipper to be experienced.

2.2.3 Voyages of up to 150 miles from a safe have - operating area category 1

The skipper should hold at least an RYA/DTp Certificate in Competency as Yachtmaster Offshore (Sailing).

There should also be on board a second person holding an RYA/DTp Certificate of Competency as Coastal Skipper (Sailing).

One of the persons referred to above should be familiar with the operation and maintenance of the main propulsion machinery of the boat, and should have attended a suitable engine course.

2.2.4 Unrestricted Service - operating area category 0

The skipper should hold at least an RYA/DTp Certificate in Competency as Yachtmaster Ocean (Sailing).

There should also be on board another person holding at least an RYA/DTp Certificate of Competency as Yachtmaster Ocean or Yachtmaster Offshore (Sailing).

One of the persons referred to above, or another person, should be familiar with the operation and maintenance of the main propulsion and associated machinery of the vessel and should have attended as suitable course.
 
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RobbieW said:
I think the following is the current crewing requirement for MCA Coding on yachts up to 24m. The linkages on the MCA site are all a bit obscure so I could easily be wrong (it came from here):
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Thanks for taking the time to post that. I was going to give it a go tomorrow as there have been quite alot of misunderstanding on all the threads relating to this.

The only thing I would add is that for Cat 3-6 "a second person capable of assisting the Skipper in an emergency should also be on board" which with a good initial briefing would normally include anyone on board.
 
Simondjuk said:
Mr Manning must be as deluded as his 'skipper' in thinking he can gloss over this potentially life threatening endeavour as merely an unfortunate turn of events! He simply serves to make himself look foolish.

Some very simple points for you, Mr Manning.

1. Yachts should not put to sea with a F10 forecast well within the minimum passage time. Period!

2. Brighton, Eastbourne and Dover represent at best dicey, at worst dangerous ports of refuge in SW gales. Period!

3. If you trained the Day Skipper who was on board, as you seem to allude to having done in your statement, and they didn't flat refuse to put to sea with a storm forecast, then I'm afraid it seems to me you failed to train them to be any sort of skipper whatsoever, be it day, night, or bathtub duckie!

4. If the Day Skipper's training lacked as above and they were perhaps the most 'qualified', then it's hard for me to conceive of how the remaining, perhaps less 'qualified' crew members, could be described as anything but complete novices.

5. Your skipper wilfully put to sea with a boat full of paying passengers of limited experience, in spite of having publically acknowledged that Storm Force 10 winds were very likely to be encountered during the passage. He even mentioned that he might use the storm jib and trysail.

I say again, since it truly beggars belief....

Prior to departure he broadcast on Twitter that he had considered the likelihood of needing to use sails designed for survival conditions in order to make a routine passage, and then put to sea regardless.

Heck, he didn't just broadcast it, he practically Yippie Yi Ay'd and boasted about it.... which gets me thinking.
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Impressed that they had a trisail on board.
Well done HL! :):rolleyes:

All RYA school boats have storm jibs onboard (some I have found still in 'as delivered bags & un-riggable). Not many have trisails, prefering triple reefed mains instead.
 
Just noticed, Sailingboy55 appears to have taken himself off Twitter, but expecting this, I did manage to save his recent posts, including the one from just before he set off: “Great F8/9 maybe even F10 Tue!!! At least it's from west so just run under storm jib!!! May even use Trysail!!!!”.

There has been a lot of criticism of him, but could he simply have never experienced such conditions and not appreciated just how bad they can be? I suggest very few have, even amongst the best instructors. Many year s ago when I first attempted the RYA coastal course, we set off from Poole in a F7 forecast to soon increase to F9. As we crossed the chain ferry, the main blew out and the instructor (are you still out there Marty?) said we should turn back. The crew member whose passage it was suggested we should go on, and we did, but Marty said “F**k you lot, I’m going below, AND, if I go overboard, leave me, I hate water”. Anyway, we went on, and conditions increased to F11 (confirmed from Met Office records later). A real nightmare, at least until Marty later reappeared on deck and got us organised and safely into the Solent.

Would I have missed it, NEVER, the best experience I’ve ever had. Would I choose to do it again, NEVER! Well done Marty for failing us all, we weren’t ready, but these days, with my instructors hat on, I’m really glad that we did do it (and survived), but it’s made me very weary of just what conditions I’d risk going to sea in, and I tend to limit planned trips to under F7 forecast in family sized yachts (however experienced the crew may be). I have though been caught out many times in violent weather on longer passages, and have always found the trysail most useful, when combined with a good storm jib.
 
alant said:
Impressed that they had a trisail on board.
Well done HL! :):rolleyes:

All RYA school boats have storm jibs onboard (some I have found still in 'as delivered bags & un-riggable). Not many have trisails, prefering triple reefed mains instead.
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All Fastnet competitors have to have both storm jib and trysail, and to demonstrate their presence by sailing past the committee with them rigged. So if Hot Liquid put boats into the Fastnet, you'd expect to find both aboard.
 
maxi77 said:
To be honest most sailors take H&S quite seriously
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I have "interesting" discussions at work, with IT folks that don't sail/fly/ride bikes/etc. and whose "risk assessment" doesn't differentiate between "must fix NOW", "fix at earliest convenience (i.e. in harbour)" and "can wait until winter refit".

"Yeah, OK, we're in a change freeze, I'll schedule picking up that trailing warp/blocking that broken seacock when it's over" :-(
 
mcframe said:
I have "interesting" discussions at work, with IT folks that don't sail/fly/ride bikes/etc. and whose "risk assessment" doesn't differentiate between "must fix NOW", "fix at earliest convenience (i.e. in harbour)" and "can wait until winter refit".

"Yeah, OK, we're in a change freeze, I'll schedule picking up that trailing warp/blocking that broken seacock when it's over" :-(
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Then I would suggest they are not carrying out risk assesments properly nor applying sensible H&S routines.

When I worked I amongst other things used to get field trials equipment certified, our board was always willing to accept reasoned argument such as the kit would be operated by it's designer rather than Joe Public so different rules were appropriate.
 
maxi77 said:
Then I would suggest they are not carrying out risk assesments properly nor applying sensible H&S routines.
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I'm talking IT, (so it's not really H&S, but I get the mindset - when appropriate for circumstances) where people rarely die as a consequence; and as a former boss once pointed out "We're not NASA; failure *is* an option..."

I've posted http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene_Kranz#Response_to_Apollo_I_launch_pad_fire_--_The_Kranz_Dictum before, but some of it is appropriate for this thread.
 
Seeing that Comrade Red posted just above this post, I thought I would include an article from the Russian media! :eek:

http://www.seaexpo.ru/ru/miscellane...86.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

GOOGLE TRANSLATION
The history of the salvation of the training boat in the area Dandzheness in south-eastern British coast in three days time to overgrown rumors and "drown" in the comments. Emergency situations occur in many yachting schools odkako not all of them are willing to openly discuss rumors and information, casting a shadow on their reputation. Two days after the incident provided a Hot Liquid public detailed information about the incident.

Two days after the unpleasant situation in the sea and the successful rescue of the crew boat, owned by Hot Liquid Sailing School on Tuesday, January 3, comments about the incident gave the managing director Jason Manning.
After the press release issued by non-profit rescue organization Station RNLI Dandzhenessa and subsequent articles in the press about the situation surrounding the rescue boat Liquid Vortex, owned by Hot Liquid Sailing, managing director of the latest Jason Manning gave an official response and comments to the incident.
"First of all, on behalf of Hot Liquid Sailing, skipper and crew boats Liquid Vortex, and my name, I express deep gratitude to RNLI for their cooperation," - said in a statement Jason Manning. - "In order to achieve absolute transparency and clarity about what happened, I would like to report that preceded the events that resulted in the crew of the yacht needed help from outside.

Below I give extracts from the official report, Hot Liquid Sailing Office for investigation of marine accidents (Accident Investigation Branch, MAIB):
"Liquid Vortex and her team came up from the pier Shamrock at 14:30 on Monday 2 yanvarya.komanda planned to arrive in Remsgeyt the next day for lunch. weather caught allowed to do so. In addition, on the way there were a few comfortable places to shelter yachts in the event of sudden deterioration in weather, as it is in Brighton, Eastbourne and Duvere. Weather forecast before leaving the yacht at sea said, the wind west-southwest, force 5 / 7 points, 10 points later. The new forecast, released in 19-30 new data did not introduce "- the report says Manning.

"Liquid Vortex has continued to move along the southern coast with winds 20 + knots with gusts reaching force 7 points. The same conditions were accompanied by a boat and in the early hours of Jan. 3. However, early in the morning the weather had deteriorated sharply, the waves rose. This has resulted in that four of the crew began to suffer from seasickness, and remained at the bottom, unable to bear watch. Soon after, at 4 o'clock in the morning, the rescue station in Duvere announced a new forecast with wind forces of up to 11 points, and the skipper of the yacht immediately decided to send a boat to Duver for shelter. Soon, the wind increased to 8 points and the yacht has become more difficult to manage, so the skipper decided to remove the storm jib and go to a port under the motor, with the expectation to come to the shelter by 2:00.

At 5:00 - 05:30 skipper gave the signal Pan Pan Duverskoy rescue station, so that they can be aware of the yacht and its finding. Lifeboat station has caused boat RNLI rescue organization to escort the yacht into port. Soon after the boat into the sea met the RNLI boat Liquid Vortex, the latter was subjected to shock waves from the great stern, causing the steering wheel was thrown on, partially bent it, that was an obstacle to further control the yacht. The steering was a severe blow to the ribs and jaw.

Due to limited control boat from a boat rescue boat on board was thrown into the tow end in order to tow the yacht into port. However, due to loss of control boat and tow the end of a strong wave broke. Tow second end and could not stand the load, and a third pulled the nose duck on a yacht. Skipper the yacht and one of the rescuers were able to straighten out on its own steering wheel, causing the yacht was able to re-administered.
"Rescue helicopter was sent to evakurovat wounded crew members and deactivated seasickness other team members. All four were taken to hospital in Remsgeyte and soon be released. Fortunately injuries were not serious steering - it puluchil bruises jaw and ribs. Subsequently, the RNLI boat was able to tow the end of the covenant, and to assist a yacht moored in Liquid Vortex Remsgeyte at a time when vener usiliksya to 10/11 points. Nevertheless, the yacht moored, using its own engine. ? Of press coverage due to a number of negative comments on social media and forums. So Jason Manning felt it necessary to emphasize that all six crew members were individuals who paid for getting more experience and are all RYA-qualified. "Novices on the yacht was not" - especially Jason Manning said. - "The team has received a full briefing on the use of storm sails, and passed special trainings Man Overboard before sending it to sea.

Yacht

Beneteau First 40.7 - one of the most popular boats in the UK for offshore voyages and races. The yacht is fully consistent with the terms of smooth. lifesaving equipment exceeds the requirements of MCA for kommertseskih satisfying. In addition, the skipper personally checked the availability and performance of all orudovaniya before going out to sea.

Shliper

The skipper has the highest in the RYA instructor qualifications, the report said Director Hot Liquid Sailing.

Weather

The forecast for this region promised that the deterioration occurs "later", which means 12-24 hours. During the voyage, the forecast has not changed. The yacht is not sought help from the RNLI. However, when the latter was nearby and rudevoy injured by falling on the wheel, it was reasonable prinyat help rescuers. The yacht can continue to progress as a sail and a motor. Temporary loss of control was eliminated simply straightening the steering wheel in the opposite direction. Except for damage to steering, all the other boats got damaged as a result of mooring boats to rescue the yacht, during which one of the rescuers landed on board the yacht, - the final report of the Director of Hot Liquid Sailing.

MAIB and RYA informed about what has happened and continues to study the incident in cooperation with Hot Liquid Sailing.

Source: mainsail.ru
 
lenseman said:
Of press coverage due to a number of negative comments on social media and forums. So Jason Manning felt it necessary to emphasize that all six crew members were individuals who paid for getting more experience and are all RYA-qualified. "Novices on the yacht was not" - especially Jason Manning said. - "The team has received a full briefing on the use of storm sails, and passed special trainings Man Overboard before sending it to sea.
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Which takes us back to my very first post in this thread
 
Damn!

I like the Russian version better. Especially the translation of (I think) Dungeness. Just think how much richer Yachting Monthly would be with a google style translation from Russian.
This has got to be a marketing opportunity.
 
We have been using google translate for Russian documents and it does a remarkably good job.

However, on our Korean press releases, even knowing in detail the content, we good not understand anything at all of the google translation from the Korean.
 
The statement makes about as much sense when translated into Russian then back again, as it did in the native British version.

Revisionist thinking was always a favourite of the soviet...:D
 
Last night I was idly wondering why the crew had to cut away the headsail with a knife & then I realised;
If one is hurtling downwind & cannot turn head to wind (due to wind over tide waves, or lack of a trysail or mizzen) then it will be impossible to get the pressure off the sail to lower it. Even releasing the sheets completely will only allow the sail to blow forward, still jamming the luff in the foil.

It's an interesting aspect of the situation & illustrates that a trysail may be useful (if sea conditions allow) to help you turn head to wind to get the sail down. It also illustrates a major advantage of roller reefing over separate headsails mounted on a foil. In addition, there would not be a problem with "traditional" piston hanks on the forestay either, would there?

This racing kit is all well & good - within limits, one needs to be aware of what it Can & cannot cope with & respond early before it creates extra hazards. Another lesson to be learned.
 
Searush said:
Last night I was idly wondering why the crew had to cut away the headsail with a knife & then I realised;
If one is hurtling downwind & cannot turn head to wind (due to wind over tide waves, or lack of a trysail or mizzen) then it will be impossible to get the pressure off the sail to lower it. Even releasing the sheets completely will only allow the sail to blow forward, still jamming the luff in the foil.

It's an interesting aspect of the situation & illustrates that a trysail may be useful (if sea conditions allow) to help you turn head to wind to get the sail down. It also illustrates a major advantage of roller reefing over separate headsails mounted on a foil. In addition, there would not be a problem with "traditional" piston hanks on the forestay either, would there?

This racing kit is all well & good - within limits, one needs to be aware of what it Can & cannot cope with & respond early before it creates extra hazards. Another lesson to be learned.
Click to expand...

I may be wrong but I thought this 40.7 had hanked on headsail.
 
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