Honda BF 2 and 2.3 - a few observations from a long term owner

[dylanwinter]

Made me feel quite sick watching that video the way it lurched about, why don't you use a tripod?

deepest apologies

just squirted the video on the spur of the moment while I was struggling with swapping over the broken kill cord mushroom

I, or youtube, will eventually dump the film from the web

although I am always surprised when companies let threads run without adding their comments to them

I think a word from Honda about the bolts would be great to hear

after-all the information cannot be new to them

there must be engineering/commercial reasons for using them

as for the carb probs I have not had them yet

I run the engine at full blatt for about half and hour a month on atie L

This summer it was the propulsion for the dinghy - and we used it a lot

no probs apart from the kill cord mushroom plastic giving way

it looks to me as though there has been some UV degradation - which is not good either

D

 

[Beyondhelp]

I've rebuilt one of these. Friend of mine dropped it in the sea, then gave it to another 'engineer' who said it was beyond repair, and got it back in bits. I said I'd have a look just for a bit of fun.

Its a pretty horrendous and incredibly cheaply built engine. I striped what was not already done (crank case) bearings (doesn't have any from memory) survived the crank was ok, and the bore recoverable with sandpaper (ARGH - but yes really) I had this at home so didnt have any proper tools, so reground in the valves with bodywork cutting compound (!!!!) and re-assembled it all. Cleaned and rebuilt the carb, (it survived) and put fuel in it. The damn thing started but WOW its not a nice engine.

I gave it back working and it has since been used several times on a cheap tender. I've now got a 4hp merc upgraded to 6hp. Ok probably weighs twice as much but its a 'real' engine. Sooo much better.

 

[steve66]

There are top and bottom roller bearings on the crank, usually its the clutch unit that suffers through submerssion.

I've rebuilt one of these. Friend of mine dropped it in the sea, then gave it to another 'engineer' who said it was beyond repair, and got it back in bits. I said I'd have a look just for a bit of fun.

Its a pretty horrendous and incredibly cheaply built engine. I striped what was not already done (crank case) bearings (doesn't have any from memory) survived the crank was ok, and the bore recoverable with sandpaper (ARGH - but yes really) I had this at home so didnt have any proper tools, so reground in the valves with bodywork cutting compound (!!!!) and re-assembled it all. Cleaned and rebuilt the carb, (it survived) and put fuel in it. The damn thing started but WOW its not a nice engine.

I gave it back working and it has since been used several times on a cheap tender. I've now got a 4hp merc upgraded to 6hp. Ok probably weighs twice as much but its a 'real' engine. Sooo much better.

 

[Ruffles]

I run the engine at full blatt for about half an hour a month on atie L

Sadly, for those of us that live miles from the sea this is not an option. Dip its wick in my brewing bucket and I can only run it at a bit over tickover without getting wet feet.

By the way do you 'run the carb dry' on yours? We have excellent fresh water tanks at Wircormarine for flushing outboards. But mine will run for ever with the fuel off. It only seems to stop if the tank vent is closed and even then takes a while.

 

[steve66]

I always run mine dry and have never had any carb issues. Remember that the little fuel in the tank still goes sour over the winter even though its sealed.

Sadly, for those of us that live miles from the sea this is not an option. Dip its wick in my brewing bucket and I can only run it at a bit over tickover without getting wet feet.

By the way do you 'run the carb dry' on yours? We have excellent fresh water tanks at Wircormarine for flushing outboards. But mine will run for ever with the fuel off. It only seems to stop if the tank vent is closed and even then takes a while.

 

[TonyS]

I have had mine for 11 years. Lives on side in cockpit locker throughout the year. It always starts first or second pull with old fuel.
Bolts are rusty but spray underside with WD 40. Nothing has been serviced!

 

[ghostlymoron]

They're very popular considering the reviews they have on here. Most people tend to ask around friends before making a significant purchase so lots of peeps must be happy with them.

 

[chewi]

they like the idea of no oil mix, no impeller, but as Dylan has shown, they are disappointing on reliability in some circumstances, aggravated by poor choice of materials.
I too had confidence in the Honda brand, but my BF2.3 has dented that with its Mild steel fixings and carburettor bowl.
Last year I had to strip the carb about twice a month.

I now run it on BP Ultimate (ethanol free) petrol to eliminate its sensitivity to ethanol separation and water in the fuel causing corrosion of the bowl.

I replaced the M6 bolts that hold the top/bottom ends together while I was still able to undo them. I had to hammer an undersize socket on them to get them out.

 

[steve66]

Hi Chewi.
If you run the carb dry you will not have any carb problems. I genuinely have not ever stripped my carb down. I make sure the fuel i use is clean and fresh and make a habit of running it dry every time. As for the ethanol you will find its more to do with galvanic corrosionfrom the zinc based material of the caeb body coming in contact with the mild steel ot the bowl retaining bolt.

they like the idea of no oil mix, no impeller, but as Dylan has shown, they are disappointing on reliability in some circumstances, aggravated by poor choice of materials.
I too had confidence in the Honda brand, but my BF2.3 has dented that with its Mild steel fixings and carburettor bowl.
Last year I had to strip the carb about twice a month.

I now run it on BP Ultimate (ethanol free) petrol to eliminate its sensitivity to ethanol separation and water in the fuel causing corrosion of the bowl.

I replaced the M6 bolts that hold the top/bottom ends together while I was still able to undo them. I had to hammer an undersize socket on them to get them out.

 

[Phoenix of Hamble]

if its any help, I wrote a blog post some time ago with a step by step guide to removing and cleaning the carb on a BF2.3

http://mishapsandmemories.blogspot.co.uk/2013/07/honda-23-outboard-carb-clean.html

 

[chewi]

Hi Chewi.
If you run the carb dry you will not have any carb problems. I genuinely have not ever stripped my carb down. I make sure the fuel i use is clean and fresh and make a habit of running it dry every time. As for the ethanol you will find its more to do with galvanic corrosionfrom the zinc based material of the caeb body coming in contact with the mild steel ot the bowl retaining bolt.

Thats interesting , I never thought of the dissimilar metals there, so haven't changed the bolt, but since I started storing my fuel cans under away from sunlight I have had no trouble.

I think there is a lot of variation in where we store the engines/ fuel and how often we use the engines, so we should be wary of drawing conclusions from inconsistent circumstances.

I used to keep my Pb free petrol in plastic cans in the tender, just tucked beneath a thwart, partially exposed to the elements. It was fine from new in 2006 to 2012.

from 2013 I had carb corrosion problems, so I looked for a cause.
The proportion of ethanol has risen recently in Pb-free, and the ethanol makes the fuel much more susceptible to water from any source, eg condensation in the can, as very little water is needed to separate the ethanol from the petrol, which certainly causes problems.

To defend against that I now keep my fuel can properly under cover, (under a box in the tender), and I avoid ethanol in the fuel if I can, (hence BP Ultimate)

I have had no problems since adopting this regime. It may the ethanol or the box the made a difference, but it certainly improved things, I have had no corrosion products in the bowl blocking the jets this season.

 

[steve66]

Fully understand where your coming from Chewi. I will keep running mine on the cheapest supermarket fuel i can buy and run them dry every time and you run yours on bps finest.
Happy boating!

Thats interesting , I never thought of the dissimilar metals there, so haven't changed the bolt, but since I started storing my fuel cans under away from sunlight I have had no trouble.

I think there is a lot of variation in where we store the engines/ fuel and how often we use the engines, so we should be wary of drawing conclusions from inconsistent circumstances.

I used to keep my Pb free petrol in plastic cans in the tender, just tucked beneath a thwart, partially exposed to the elements. It was fine from new in 2006 to 2012.

from 2013 I had carb corrosion problems, so I looked for a cause.
The proportion of ethanol has risen recently in Pb-free, and the ethanol makes the fuel much more susceptible to water from any source, eg condensation in the can, as very little water is needed to separate the ethanol from the petrol, which certainly causes problems.

To defend against that I now keep my fuel can properly under cover, (under a box in the tender), and I avoid ethanol in the fuel if I can, (hence BP Ultimate)

I have had no problems since adopting this regime. It may the ethanol or the box the made a difference, but it certainly improved things, I have had no corrosion products in the bowl blocking the jets this season.

 

[silver-fox]

They're very popular considering the reviews they have on here. Most people tend to ask around friends before making a significant purchase so lots of peeps must be happy with them.

It aint necessarily so! I bought mine on the strength of the Honda name. Won't do that again.

 

[chewi]

Thats interesting , I never thought of the dissimilar metals there, so haven't changed the bolt, but since I started storing my fuel cans under away from sunlight I have had no trouble.

I think there is a lot of variation in where we store the engines/ fuel and how often we use the engines, so we should be wary of drawing conclusions from inconsistent circumstances.

I used to keep my Pb free petrol in plastic cans in the tender, just tucked beneath a thwart, partially exposed to the elements. It was fine from new in 2006 to 2012.

from 2013 I had carb corrosion problems, so I looked for a cause.
The proportion of ethanol has risen recently in Pb-free, and the ethanol makes the fuel much more susceptible to water from any source, eg condensation in the can, as very little water is needed to separate the ethanol from the petrol, which certainly causes problems.

To defend against that I now keep my fuel can properly under cover, (under a box in the tender), and I avoid ethanol in the fuel if I can, (hence BP Ultimate)

I have had no problems since adopting this regime. It may the ethanol or the box the made a difference, but it certainly improved things, I have had no corrosion products in the bowl blocking the jets this season.

I spoke too soon.
This weekend it would not start after 3 weeks unuse.
Carb bowl had about half a teaspoonful of corrosion products in it.
All cleaned out now and it now runs fine again, but I think I need a new carburettor bowl now.

 

[steve66]

Here endeth todays lesson!!

Fully understand where your coming from Chewi. I will keep running mine on the cheapest supermarket fuel i can buy and run them dry every time and you run yours on bps finest.
Happy boating!

 

[ghostlymoron]

Sorry to resurrect this thread but here's a pic of mine from underneath. I'm going to replace these rusty bolts with stainless or zinc plated!

 

[dylanwinter]

Sorry to resurrect this thread but here's a pic of mine from underneath. I'm going to replace these rusty bolts with stainless or zinc plated!

the weird thing is....

how much would it cost them to replace those bolts with something slightly more weather resistant?

or even slip a set of replacement ones in with the tool kit so that you could replace them when they go rusty - as they all do

that aside.... and I say it again

it is a bloody good little engine

I have never had an engine apart from the Honda in the mower and the Honda in the Vision that was such a good little starter

they always seem to be happy to fire up

Dylan

PS -

honda vision

bloody good little bike

fitted in the back of the escort estate

https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3370/3591992393_8ce87e2ac7.jpg

 

[rotrax]

PS -

honda vision

bloody good little bike

fitted in the back of the escort estate

https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3370/3591992393_8ce87e2ac7.jpg

When I was a motorcycle dealer in the '80's the Honda Melody was the favoured Honda Scooter.

The replacement was the Vision, still restricted to 30 MPH ish but bigger and improved.

I was road testing one for a rather large lady who complained of bad steering. I could find no trouble with the mechanicals, so I whizzed it round the block.

All seemed well. Perfectly normal. I got to a slightly uphill "T" junction and the old cranial computer told me if I gassed it I could safely turn right in front of the oncoming traffic.

I gassed it, went straight on and almost went up the opposite kerb and through a ladies hairdressers window!

The punchy little 50cc engine in conjunction with the centrifugal clutch and variable transmission had lifted the front wheel clear of the road. It patently could not change direction in this mode!

The owner, being tall and heavy, sat further back than me and this was her bad steering problem-her weight distribution allied to the acceleration characteristics lifted the front wheel even more easily.

We got her to move forward at junctions and be a little less aggressive with the throttle and her problem went away...........................

Sorry for the Fred Drift!

 

[steve66]

the weird thing is....

how much would it cost them to replace those bolts with something slightly more weather resistant?

or even slip a set of replacement ones in with the tool kit so that you could replace them when they go rusty - as they all do

that aside.... and I say it again

it is a bloody good little engine

I have never had an engine apart from the Honda in the mower and the Honda in the Vision that was such a good little starter

they always seem to be happy to fire up

Dylan

PS -

honda vision

bloody good little bike

fitted in the back of the escort estate

https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3370/3591992393_8ce87e2ac7.jpg

They are only coppers to buy. If anyones interested in swapping you will need for the clutch and engine,
3 x m6 x 25mm flange bolts
4 x m6 x 60 bolts (usually the original washers are ok) DO NOT PUT LONGER BOLTS IN ,YOU WILL PENETRATE THE LOWER CRANKCASE COVER!!!
Other critical bolts that tend to rust are rocker cover and exhaust manifold bolts.These are m5 x 16mm flange, 20mm will be fine.
Hope this helps someone

 

[AngusMcDoon]

it is a bloody good little engine...

You wait until your carb rusts out, blocks all the jets with crud, and see if you still think it's a good engine. What can anyone possibly like about that nasty rubbery flap that holds the cowl on rather than the clips Yamaha use which must have cost an extra 50p? Tried draining the carb with the drain screw? Bet you can't because there's a furball of rust around it. Cheese metal bolts which can be replaced for buttons is just sloppy. A carb that rust which is expensive to change is absolutely unforgivable and the only explanation I can think of is that the designers had zero experience of materials in a marine environment, or more likely, the bean counters ruled the show.

They are the nastiest most penny pinched marine engine going and are a disgrace to Honda's previously good reputation. The Honda dealers know it's krap. They must have given feedback up the line. I can't understand why Honda persists with it rather than ditching it and replacing it with a decently made new model for another £50.