Holding Tank in Baltic?

[Kurrawong_Kid]

I am proposing to cruise to the Baltic this summer. Does any forumite know whether you must have a holding tank or will a porta-potti type toilet be acceptable providing the seatoilet is taken out of use? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

 

[johnalison]

I've not encountered any regulations or officialdom in the Western Baltic, though you may need to be more careful inland, such as the Gotha canal.

 

[LadyJessie]

I only know the rules in Sweden: you are not allowed to dispose any black water within 6 nm's of the coast. In reality, that is impossible to check, but you need a holding tank and then dispose say 3 nm's offshore. Don't even think of disposing in a harbour or a natural anchorage. Not only is it seriously asocial behaviour, the Swedes are terrible in always violently terrorizing any offender, reporting them and bringing them to quick justice. They are sticklers for following rules. Just don't let it get outside the boat in confined areas.

 

[Helina]

In Finland to be legal you need the holding tank. Porta potti is the one you can use instead but take care where to empty it.

Welcome to the Finnish archipelago !

 

[BrendanS]

Boat in a club I used to belong to, let their holding tank loose while we were in Portsmouth. The wake was unmistakeable.

When challenged why the didn't do it out at sea, they really didn't care

 

[cnh]

Having cruised Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Germany and Denmark, I've never seen any pump out facilities being used or advertised. Whilst the requirement is there, it doesn't seem to have much back up. And if you're in harbour, you use the loos provided.

Nicholas

 

[Kurrawong_Kid]

Thanks for advice

 

[PeterGibbs]

I think it fair to summarise the spirit of sailing in the Baltic as: "take care, avoid any spoiling of harbour or closed water areas, but recognise that discharge facilities in many places are non-existent" Just like home!

If I had a large crew/family on board I would get a portapotty
But going to the trouble of a permanent tanking fixture just for these waters would, for the above reason, be unrewarding!

On this basis I think most authorities will not single you out for "heavy treatment".

PWG

 

[LadyJessie]

I think this highlights the difference of perspective I have often noticed between British sailors and mainland Europeans. The British perspective, IMHO, is stated as 'there are no pumping out facilities in Europe and that absolves me from the need to use a holding tank'. Please correct me if I am wrong in this impression. It was very clearly (and loudly) stated to me by a British charter boat this summer who had just pumped out s*** into my children's swimming area and he was very convinced that it was OK to do so just because 'he knew there were no pump out facilities in the Med'. I tried to explain that you normally pump out offshore in the Med (and in Scandinavia) but that was a novel concept to him.

Let me try to describe my perspective: I grew up in Scandinavia and for at least the last 35 years, holding tanks have been a normal part of my boat equipment. At no time can I remember that pumping out facilities have been assumed to be a requirement or even discussed. If you know Scandinavia (and for that matter; the Med), you would know that it is so large that the concept of pumping out facilities everywhere would be logistically impossible (there are indeed a few ones around the big cities). The two concepts have never been assumed to be dependent on each other; that would be inconceivable. How that concept have come to be connected in Britain, I don't know. I can only guess that someone has sometime proposed it, as Britain conceptually could be one of the few places where you could have such a system due to your more concentrated sailing areas. I don't think it could work anywhere else in the world and I don't know that anybody has ever assumed that it could.

So, in summary; the lack of pump out facilities is no excuse for not using a holding tank to preserve the coastal environment. You should do this 'at home' as well if you care for your own coastal areas.

 

[justdrifting]

Denmark Sweden Finland do have pump out stations.The Baltic states dont as said( there are a few places though i found)

Be very carful with your discharge,some islands will discharge you daily or bi-daily

Never ever ever mention to any one other arrangements a group swiming past wouldent be pleased.If you HAVE to pumpout at sea doit well offshore(20miles at least)

Secondly and more to the point you will be asked to eat spaghetti or potatoes etc boiled in local sea water!!!!!!!!
Washing ups always? Done in "sea" water.

I once used sea water in port to make coffee(all week)tasted awful luckly i brought my own morning drinkwith me!

 

[PeterGibbs]

Quote:

So, in summary; the lack of pump out facilities is no excuse for not using a holding tank to preserve the coastal environment. You should do this 'at home' as well if you care for your own coastal areas.
____________________

It's time to get real on the environment. Discharging at sea is not comparable to throwing it on the pavement. The amount of organic material flushed into the sea is large, and most of it is excreta from fish, birds, plus decaying vegetation and the rest. It’s part of the carbon cycle.

Processed sewage flushed into the sea is huge in volume but is just that. All organic material has to decompose somewhere! “Processing” does not magic it away! Most of the world faces a far larger problem from this source than discharges from itinerant boats.

Recycling through breakdown is actually promoted in coastal waters by wave action and is in any case immaterial to the volume of the sea. The sea takes care of it (unless you are a disciple of Gaia) and has done so for 500 million years; our small boat additions are puny in comparison. Cans, bottles and non recyclables are strictly for processing on shore. We wreck infinitely more damage on the ecology through non-organic antifoul paints than organic boat discharges.

So passing boats make no actionable difference when discharging out at sea. It is only concentrations of discharges in rivers and ports that become offensive (rightly) and destructive. To persist with the baseless assertion that boats must use holding tanks at all times, and in the face of limited pumpout facilities, is perverse.

Those who persist in following zero tolerance over the environment will see, if they are honest, that man has no place on this planet, because no distortion of the natural order can be countenanced. Really?

Following this path, all human life becomes distorted beyond recognition. Leisure travel will be outlawed, diets will have to change to better blend with sustainability (whatever that is) CO2 emissions from all inessential sources will be suppressed, meaning an end to sport (Saturday soccer done for!) even non-reproductive sex. And interruptible electricity will be the norm in a land of windmills and tidal generators. I think not.

Let’s get real and apply our efforts where they pay off, rather than promoting and succouring a world of neurotic fantasies: just look how fancy water swiggers are now realising how stupid it is to cart water hundreds of miles in plastic bottles rather than use what is processed locally and delivered by tap. Objective reality gets there after a long battle with belief based systems of thought. This is where effort can be justifiably applied.

Sail on with care but not trepidation, I say.


PWG

 

[LadyJessie]

[ QUOTE ]
So passing boats make no actionable difference when discharging out at sea. It is only concentrations of discharges in rivers and ports that become offensive (rightly) and destructive. To persist with the baseless assertion that boats must use holding tanks at all times, and in the face of limited pumpout facilities, is perverse.

[/ QUOTE ]We are totally in agreement on your first statement. Holding tanks are for discharging offshore, and I agree that the environmental impact is probably very limited. However, I cannot square that with your second statement. How do you avoid the 'offensive and destructive' discharge in rivers, ports and anchoring bays if you do not have a holding tank? Those are the places where you will find boats spending the majority of their time. I am really struggling to understand your logic here.

 

[joe17]

Perhaps you can find the answer in this from the Helsinki commission "the governing body of the "Convention on the Protection of the Marine Environment of the Baltic Sea Area"

Helsinki commission clean seas guide

in finland, at least, holding tanks are now mandatory and our club has a nice and smelly (when someone is pumping) pump out station.

 

[PeterGibbs]

The answer is the one you (correctly) expect namely, every effort should be made in rivers and marinas to use shoreside facilities. And as I said earlier, when the boat is loaded with crew, a portapotty is most preferable.

PWG

 

[LadyJessie]

PWG; we probably have very different experiences of sailing environments. I agree with you that if you are on the south coast of the UK, shoreside facilities could work as a solution if you are only doing short passages. However, sailing in Scandinavia or the Med, any shoreside facilities might be 30 nm's away at best. You still do not want to ruin your anchoring environment so a holding tank is your only option, IMHO. A portapotty will certainly do the trick as well, but I fail to see any advantage of this over a holding tank.

 

[roger]

A porta potti is OK if you can find somewhere to empty it. The chemicals it uses will wreck usual septic tank systems and are very unwelcome in many camp sites for that reason. Equally dumping a porta potti load off shore wouuld do much more damage than a holding tank would.
As said in Finland any sewage discharge at sea or in harbour i is prohibited unless 20? miles outside the outermost island. There are a reasonable number of pump out stations in Finland and distinctly less in Sweden.
Both countris have extensive Skaregarden (sheltered archipelagoes of islands) which are where most sailing is done. Fouling guest harbours, anchorages or natural mooring places is extremely antisocial. Remember that there are no tides so the sewage remains where discharged. At least in Sweden the Batsportkarten (large scale chart folios) have a pink symbols (little upright hut with heart cut out) showing the locations of dry toilets on remote islands making much of the sewage discharge quite unnecessary. There is also a largely voluntary group of heroes who go round at intervals to service the toilets.
I cant claim to be very green in this respect. I do discharge urine to the sea. We do have an onboard box for used toilet paper. This mainly serves to disguise our activities rather than to improve the environment. We make every effort to avoid solids discharge in the skaergarden. Its not a good compromise but we only have a very small holding tank.
There is a peculiarly horrible compromise pump out system type available at several Swedish and Finnish marinas. This is a cart mounted polythene tank which you are supposed to pull along the pontoon to your boat, operate the hand pumps to empty your holding tank, drag the equipment back to shore, find a drain, discharge the polythen tank etc. I have never seen it in use.