HMRC consultation on Red Diesel

[Spirit (of Glenans)]

If regulations change then marinas will fit white diesel facilities. The west coast of Scotland is not that devoid of marinas. Surface mounted diesel storage and distribution facilities are only around £5k plus installation costs, hardly bank breaking. The majority of small yachts do not have large fuel tanks but probably big enough that they won't lug portable tanks around, hence there will be a demand for non marked diesel facilities.

See the MMHA5's post above on page 2, re the economics of this course of action, or rather the uneconomics.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

See the MMHA5's post above on page 2, re the economics of this course of action, or rather the uneconomics.

The economic argument that it is not worth the hassle is weak for marina facilities. It’s a service that is provided to get you in and spend money on other things i.e. the package of services is where the profit is, not just any single service.

I would even believe if the white ruling is implemented there is even more imperative to offer the service at an inflated price if supplies are limited.

When the ruling comes into force, boat owners and marina operators will be gearing up for white supplies. The belief that we are all going to be stuck with red diesel is obtuse. Sure, places that serve commercial vessels might not respond but I bet some enterprising local will in some of the places that have a reasonable leisure yacht throughput.

 

[lw395]

It’s pretty clear from the linked information in the OPs post, and the articles links, that we have an opportunity to influence the implementation period.

I will respond based on my own experiences and volume of diesel used. It’s going to happen, so I would like a long period of time, post marina upgrade to dilute my system e.g. 5 years for marinas to change over (or other recognized yacht bunkering places), plus some additional years to dilute our marked diesel, that would be less than the facility upgrade years as folks should run down marked diesel in their system.

That’s my thoughts so far. I have already decommissioned one 60 Gallon tank and it takes me about 2 seasons at current usage levels to use the other 60 gallons.

I am confident the market in Scotland will respond positively to white diesel supply at the marinas. The issue is marking of diesel, not revenue collection or refunding.

Would a commercially operated yacht, say a sailing school, still be allowed to use marked fuel?

I expect red diesel sales to yachts will cease in January, in line with Ireland.

 

[Minchsailor]

I suppose in places like Lochinver, where the Council cannot afford to install a tank, it may be possible for a road tanker to arrive at a fixed time, say a couple of times a week, for us yotties?

But pity the poor guys on the west coast of Lewis and Harris where the only convenient tank is Comhairle nan Eileen Siar's at Miavaig, West Loch Roag. No way could white diesel be supplied there.

 

[AngusMcDoon]

I suppose in places like Lochinver, where the Council cannot afford to install a tank, it may be possible for a road tanker to arrive at a fixed time, say a couple of times a week, for us yotties?

But pity the poor guys on the west coast of Lewis and Harris where the only convenient tank is Comhairle nan Eileen Siar's at Miavaig, West Loch Roag. No way could white diesel be supplied there.

I wonder what the rules will be for charities, the main one being the RNLI, but also the sail training organisations which operate some fairly hefty boats in these parts. Maybe the RNLI have enough wonga to drive their own truck around to some of the far flung places where their boats are stationed.

 

[CLB]

And how much of that is used for propulsion and how much for, ahem, heating?

A good question. When I am using the boat in this way, It is generally 100% propulsion. That is why fuel berths offer the purchaser the choice of declaring a variable ratio. I have declared all sorts of ratios, including 100:0, 60:40, 20:80 and even 0:100

 

[lw395]

I suppose in places like Lochinver, where the Council cannot afford to install a tank, it may be possible for a road tanker to arrive at a fixed time, say a couple of times a week, for us yotties?

But pity the poor guys on the west coast of Lewis and Harris where the only convenient tank is Comhairle nan Eileen Siar's at Miavaig, West Loch Roag. No way could white diesel be supplied there.

There's a garage is there not?
Buy enough in cans to get to relative civilisation.

I would have thought people who find everything so difficult were unsuited to living on a small island in the first place.

 

[Minchsailor]

There's a garage is there not?
Buy enough in cans to get to relative civilisation.

I would have thought people who find everything so difficult were unsuited to living on a small island in the first place.

At Lochinver there is, but it is about a mile away; Miaviag I shouldn't think there is one for miles.

Maybe doable for those who live there, but consider those who are visiting (BTW, effectively me) who will not have a car or other transport.

 

[lw395]

Perhaps some indigenous fellowwill deliver some for a fee?
Actually, it will more likely be a Pole or an Aussie gap year stoodent.

As with motorcycling in the boondocks, one will learn to paln well and fill up when you can.

 

[AngusMcDoon]

At Lochinver there is, but it is about a mile away; Miaviag I shouldn't think there is one for miles.

Maybe doable for those who live there, but consider those who are visiting (BTW, effectively me) who will not have a car or other transport.

HM will shuttle you there in Lochinver, although not officially of course.

 

[Daydream believer]

A 1500l bunded plastic tank, meterered pump and hose can be bought new from less than £1500 upwards. A 2500l tank is only a couple of hundred more. The "uneconomic" excuse has been done to death by the BMIF etc, and simply doesn't hold water (or diesel)

I wish people like you would stop spreading such carp.
I discussed this with a marina owner & he calculated the cost at circa £ 15000-00
He cannot just plonk a tank on the pontoon & leave it at that. Apparently the water authority would have something to say for a start.
Apart from bunded underground storage tanks there are things like bunded fuel lines out onto the pontoons, power supplies etc , H & S issues & pontoon works, staff costs etc. I do not recall the full list but it went on & on.

I later discussed with a construction company that did petrol station work & they concurred that things like simply cleaning & re lining existing tanks can soon run up a few £K

 

[Old Harry]

I wonder what the rules will be for charities, the main one being the RNLI, but also the sail training organisations which operate some fairly hefty boats in these parts. Maybe the RNLI have enough wonga to drive their own truck around to some of the far flung places where their boats are stationed.

The Dutch have sail training groups & one or two lifeboats too, they will in the words of Gloria Gaynor, survive

 

[LONG_KEELER]

When I first started sailing and cruising , many like me, had petrol engines.

Petrol on the water was a rare thing. Either the marina or local people were only too willing to run you to the nearest garage. Sometimes it was quite a distance. It was a very pleasant meeting local people.

 

[AngusMcDoon]

The Dutch have sail training groups & one or two lifeboats too, they will in the words of Gloria Gaynor, survive

I'm sure they do, but they also have white diesel by the water because their whole coastline is densely populated, which northern parts of the UK are not & hence may never have white diesel by the water. Of course, the RNLI will work around the problem, if it applies to them, but I don't know if it will. They might be allowed to continue using red, but they are neither commercial nor leisure, so I don't know.

 

[duncan99210]

I wonder what the rules will be for charities, the main one being the RNLI, but also the sail training organisations which operate some fairly hefty boats in these parts. Maybe the RNLI have enough wonga to drive their own truck around to some of the far flung places where their boats are stationed.

RNLI and charities will be operating their boats under commercial rules and not as pleasure vessels. They and companies such as sea schools will therefore be able to use red diesel as now.

 

[AngusMcDoon]

RNLI and charities will be operating their boats under commercial rules and not as pleasure vessels. They and companies such as sea schools will therefore be able to use red diesel as now.

Excellent. Thank you.

 

[Malish]

RNLI and charities will be operating their boats under commercial rules and not as pleasure vessels. They and companies such as sea schools will therefore be able to use red diesel as now.

and if they have to use fully taxed white diesel they will be able to make a claim on their tax return, or am I missing something?

 

[Biggles Wader]

and if they have to use fully taxed white diesel they will be able to make a claim on their tax return, or am I missing something?

Bingo! Why don't we just bin dyed fuel and make all fuel duty payable on purchase? Those concerns that are eligible for duty free concessions can then apply for refund of duty which should not be a problem in the modern age. Lets face it some reckon we can operate the NI border by technology so this will be child's play. Yes there will be fraud just as there is now but it would require active applications for refunds rather than passive use of red fuel and there would be a clear "paper trail" for HMRC to follow. Seems like a win to me.

 

[Bru]

I wish people like you would stop spreading such carp.
I discussed this with a marina owner & he calculated the cost at circa £ 15000-00
He cannot just plonk a tank on the pontoon & leave it at that. Apparently the water authority would have something to say for a start.
Apart from bunded underground storage tanks there are things like bunded fuel lines out onto the pontoons, power supplies etc , H & S issues & pontoon works, staff costs etc. I do not recall the full list but it went on & on.

I later discussed with a construction company that did petrol station work & they concurred that things like simply cleaning & re lining existing tanks can soon run up a few £K

Except that it IS NOT CRAP

What underground storage tanks?

What "staff costs"?

What "H&S" issues?

They're already dispensing diesel for crying out loud!

You don't NEED to stick it on a pontoon

The diesel tank at Fambridge is EXACTLY the sort of self contained bunded tank I am talking about. It's on the bank with a hose run to the fuel berth hose reel.

These things are in widespread use all over the place from marinas to farms to plant hire yards to ... well anywhere where a drop it on the ground and meet the regulations supply of fuel is needed.

Bluntly, he was just reciting the list of pathetic bleating excuses the industry has been trotting out for over a decade as to why the UK is incapable of doing something the rest of Europe (bar Ireland) had no bloody difficulty doing at all

Oh for sure, the self contained bunded tank isn't going to be the ideal solution in high volume locations but then operators who sell large columes of diesel will be proportionally just as able to amortise the cost of providing unmarked fuel

Just watch how quickly the industry changes it's tune when they HAVE to start supplying unmarked fuel!

 

[duncan99210]

Except that it IS NOT CRAP

What underground storage tanks?

What "staff costs"?

What "H&S" issues?

They're already dispensing diesel for crying out loud!

You don't NEED to stick it on a pontoon

The diesel tank at Fambridge is EXACTLY the sort of self contained bunded tank I am talking about. It's on the bank with a hose run to the fuel berth hose reel.

These things are in widespread use all over the place from marinas to farms to plant hire yards to ... well anywhere where a drop it on the ground and meet the regulations supply of fuel is needed.

Bluntly, he was just reciting the list of pathetic bleating excuses the industry has been trotting out for over a decade as to why the UK is incapable of doing something the rest of Europe (bar Ireland) had no bloody difficulty doing at all

Oh for sure, the self contained bunded tank isn't going to be the ideal solution in high volume locations but then operators who sell large columes of diesel will be proportionally just as able to amortise the cost of providing unmarked fuel

Just watch how quickly the industry changes it's tune when they HAVE to start supplying unmarked fuel!

I think you’re missing the point. For those places where there is a significant demand for white fuel (say in excess of 50% of their business) it’ll be worthwhile investing in tankage and dispensing equipment to cover both white and red diesel.
For those existing places which currently sell red diesel primarily to commercial vessels with a side line selling to pleasure boats, the chances are that it won’t be worth their while investing in a second set of dispensing kit to sell white diesel. Whether you like it or not, there are environmental control regulations in place which will mean that you can’t simply place a second set of gear into an existing location. You’ll need permissions and licences, none of which come cheap, so the cost benefit analysis will tend toward the “I can’t be bothered” and of the spectrum rather than “coo, I could make some more money” end.
Final point. Any dispensing pumps will need to be certifiable by the local trading standards folks and HMRC, as they’re retail vending kit. I’m not sure that the dispensing kit supplied with the bunded tanks being quoted here will meet those levels of accuracy, thus adding further to the costs involved.